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Topic: Housebreaking a male Border Collie!!!!!! Update pg 6.

Posted By: chele on 05/04/14 01:31pm

Yes. Male. Border. Collie. ARGH!!!!!

I'm the first to admit Border Collies are too much for me. I prefer a laid back dog. But, our 11 week old puppy, Patches, is hubby's dog. He was devastated over the passing of his 14 y/o BC mix, Skeeter. When we met Patches he walked right up to hubby, threw himself down and onto his back for a belly rub. That was it, he was sold.

The breeder told us Patches is an aggressive dog, but went on to say at feeding time with the other pups. He's a good pup. The intelligence just shines out if his eyes. Very sweet and very charming. Very high energy. He is ADHD on speed. He plays with ALL of his toys, he has about 20.

We have only had him a week. He holds his bladder all night. We take him out about every thirty minutes, or when he acts like he needs to go. He has gotten good at going on the command, "go pee". Then he will pee the minute we bring him back in the house. Never in the same place twice. I use white vinegar to clean with.

The dogs were in the back yard while we went to Church. He peed (on command) before we brought him in. In the past hour and a half he has peed in the house twice, been taken out twice where he peed once. We have him blocked into the livingroom so we can keep a close eye on him.

To me it seems like he's ADHD. Just playing then without a thought he pees. We urgently tell him " no" and most the time he stops then we tell him "need outside?" and out we go. One of us takes the dog, the other cleans up the carpet. IF we ever get him housebroke I will shampoo the carpet.

Is he marking?? At 11 weeks?

If he had a UTI wouldn't he pee at night?

Help? I just don't remember it being this hard to housenreak a puppy! I don't want to have him ruin the camper so I really want him housebroke before we go camping the first weekend of June.

* This post was last edited 06/05/14 10:26am by chele *


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Posted By: romore on 05/04/14 01:51pm

Have you had him checked for a bladder infection? I laughed at your comment about ADHD on speed. That pretty much sums up a bc.


Posted By: donn0128 on 05/04/14 01:51pm

It takes a lot of time and patience to house train and dog. Some catch on a little faster than others, but it is not insurmountable. You might try a training collar. Yea, I know lots of people thing they are cruel, but for some things they are great. Like stopping a runner. Once they get the idea that they are going to get a ding and/or mild shock things start to fall into place. Just remember he is still a baby and as with any baby you need to be consistent and patient.






Posted By: robsouth on 05/04/14 02:00pm

Our vets says not to expect "full compliance" with house training until about 4 months, and that is after diligent training the whole while. We have a new pup too and she has just about got it down, only the occasional boo boo. She's nearing 5 months now.


"Sometimes I just sit and think. Sometimes I just sit." "Great minds like a think."


Posted By: Francesca Knowles on 05/04/14 02:04pm

Borders are very highly strung, and the more "purebred", the tighter the string. Especially if this one came from a real working line, potty training may prove to be the least of your problems. Working dogs need real work to do, and if they don't have it can develop antisocial habits as an outlet.

Hubby's former dog being a Border Collie mix can't have prepared you for the real thing. My Sister and her husband acquired one for exactly the same reason and despite the fact that they had raised/trained other difficult types, they could NOT break their purebred, papered Border of one of his innate compulsions: herding. In his case, the only thing around to "herd" was people- often children. And as is well known, Borders herd by nipping at heels.

They eventually had to put the poor dog down, since people-heel-nipping is considered- quite rightly- BITING.

I tell you this in in the sincere hope that if necessary (and while this one is still young) you reevaluate, perhaps even reconsider whether he's a good match for your situation.


" Not every mind that wanders is lost. " With apologies to J.R.R. Tolkien


Posted By: SooperDaddy on 05/04/14 02:15pm

They have pads at pet shops that will attract the dog to pee there. They also have drops that u can use and slowly move the drop on the floor towards the door. Check with a good puppy breeder, dog trainer or pet shop.

Border Collies are too damn smart for their own good!


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Posted By: chele on 05/04/14 02:55pm

Four months?? Yikes. I just don't remember this being so tough, but then again it's been 18 years since I've had a puppy. My dog was adopted at 7 years old; so much easier!

Francesca thanks for the warning! Hubby is a rancher and both dogs go to work with him daily. Patches will have a "job", which is keeping the cattle off the cake spout. Doesn't sound like much, but with a BC's total focus Skeeter took it very serious! We think Patches will too. No big deal if he doesn't, his job can be riding around with hubby in the truck. If he wants to work (and he breeder says he's very bred for cattle work) then he will have the opportunity to work the alley when we are branding cattle. In between opportunities to work he has 8600 acres to run around on, chances are he will stay by the truck, because he will be hoping for " action". Seems the dogs live for getting to "go" - doesn't matter where! So far being outside at the ranch has been no problem at all. If I can unravel the peeing in the house puzzle he will be a great dog [emoticon]


Posted By: Pawz4me on 05/04/14 03:12pm

Sounds like a perfectly normal 11 week old puppy to me. Please don't even think about using a training collar on him. I'm not against their use. But not on babies.


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Posted By: Dog Folks on 05/04/14 04:13pm

The bladder of a 11 week old puppy is small.

I would also do a vet check.

Keep working with him, he will come around.

If you have three days, with absolutely nothing to do, P.M. me and I will give you a trick to try.


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Posted By: Francesca Knowles on 05/04/14 04:15pm

chele wrote:


......snip.....
Francesca thanks for the warning! Hubby is a rancher and both dogs go to work with him daily. Patches will have a "job", which is keeping the cattle off the cake spout. Doesn't sound like much, but with a BC's total focus Skeeter took it very serious!.....snip


WHEW- Sounds like a good match, then! [emoticon]


Posted By: Code2High on 05/04/14 05:57pm

Get thee to the vet.


susan

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Posted By: Happytraveler on 05/04/14 06:06pm

Eleven weeks(very small bladder) is awfully young to expect a lot out of a puppy. Geez, our breeder wouldn't let her pups go until they reached 3 months old. Our dogs were fully potty trained at a year.


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Posted By: chele on 05/04/14 06:06pm

Pawz4me wrote:

Sounds like a perfectly normal 11 week old puppy to me. Please don't even think about using a training collar on him. I'm not against their use. But not on babies.
I agree. Plus I don't want him scared of peeing! I'm not convinved he would make the connection between peeing and peeing in the wrong place. As you all know, we really need him comfortable peeing in front of us, on command is a bonus, sure makes traveling easier!

Since I see this as a puzzle we really gave it a lot of thought today.
He has no problem holding his bladder all night.
We have let him have free access to water, however, he is locked in the bedroom at night and there is no water in there.
Today we decided to restrict his access to water. Play, get a drink, go outside. Nap, get a drink, go outside. Eat, get a drink, go outside. It's only been a few hours but we have had 100% success so far. Makes me nervous limiting water access, but it's only limited in the house.


Posted By: CatandJim on 05/04/14 06:32pm

I still have no idea why... we as humans... have such unrealist expectations of small, very young dogs. We want them to learn something in a week or two or three that it takes a human child a matter of years to learn and train their body to control.

TIME, patience, consistency and reward for the right behavior trains a dog. Resist the urge to punish, that accomplishes very little other than a dog that will hide when nature calls. In just a few short weeks = 6 to 8 usually, the puppy will be trained. Have patience, praise the dog when it goes outside and it will learn. Dogs by their very nature want to please, so give it a chance to do just that, learn what pleases.


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Posted By: doxiemom11 on 05/04/14 08:31pm

Still young to be fully housetrained. Take him out often as his bladder is still small. He will come around, but maybe not for another month or so. Some people use puppy pads and then move them by the door, then outside the door etc. I have never used them, so don't know if that works or not. We always just take ours to the same spot outside and tell it to go potty - when it happens, praises and treats, then play time. Just keep trying.


Posted By: chele on 05/04/14 09:04pm

Thanks for the input everyone!

We will keep trying. He did much better this afternoon. No, I don't expect perfection, but it just seemed *sigh* aargh!

We'll get there.


Posted By: BCSnob on 05/05/14 05:45am

Francesca Knowles wrote:

Borders are very highly strung, and the more "purebred", the tighter the string. Especially if this one came from a real working line...
Stated by someone who doesn't know manure about working Border Collies.



I suggest you seek help where there is real knowledge about working Border Collies: BC Boards

You just missed the 2014 USBCHA Cattledog Finals in Leeton, Missouri where you could have seen just how much these dogs can do working cattle.


Our litter of 6 week old working bred Border Collies (all males) is already asking to go outside to go to the bathroom.


Young Border Collies are easily distracted. They must be watched 100% of the time while they are out and you're still house breaking. In our house the rule is if you cannot watch the pup 100% of the time the pup should be crated until it is house broken.

I think you hit on the key to your problem; playing hard then loading up on water.

Mark

* This post was edited 05/05/14 05:59am by BCSnob *


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Posted By: Go Dogs on 05/05/14 07:16am

chele wrote:

Yes. Male. Border. Collie. ARGH!!!!!

I'm the first to admit Border Collies are too much for me. I prefer a laid back dog. But, our 11 week old puppy, Patches, is hubby's dog. He was devastated over the passing of his 14 y/o BC mix, Skeeter. When we met Patches he walked right up to hubby, threw himself down and onto his back for a belly rub. That was it, he was sold.

The breeder told us Patches is an aggressive dog, but went on to say at feeding time with the other pups. He's a good pup. The intelligence just shines out if his eyes. Very sweet and very charming. Very high energy. He is ADHD on speed. He plays with ALL of his toys, he has about 20.

We have only had him a week. He holds his bladder all night. We take him out about every thirty minutes, or when he acts like he needs to go. He has gotten good at going on the command, "go pee". Then he will pee the minute we bring him back in the house. Never in the same place twice. I use white vinegar to clean with.

The dogs were in the back yard while we went to Church. He peed (on command) before we brought him in. In the past hour and a half he has peed in the house twice, been taken out twice where he peed once. We have him blocked into the livingroom so we can keep a close eye on him.

To me it seems like he's ADHD. Just playing then without a thought he pees. We urgently tell him " no" and most the time he stops then we tell him "need outside?" and out we go. One of us takes the dog, the other cleans up the carpet. IF we ever get him housebroke I will shampoo the carpet.

Is he marking?? At 11 weeks?

If he had a UTI wouldn't he pee at night?

Help? I just don't remember it being this hard to housenreak a puppy! I don't want to have him ruin the camper so I really want him housebroke before we go camping the first weekend of June.


If this pup was the Alpha member of his litter, he may very well be marking in attempt to assume Alpha status in your home. When he urinates in the house-is it just a few drops, (marking)or a long void, (full bladder). Will this dog be neutered? As he gets older and makes attempt at Alpha status, it may cause problems with the current Alpha member, (another dog or you).
When you choose a pup, you should match personalities. If you are not the pack leader-you do not want an Alpha pup.






Posted By: BCSnob on 05/05/14 07:32am

Usually, with working bred Border Collies, it is not a dominance issue towards people. They have been bred for years to want to please; the issue is usually getting and keeping their focus on what you want when their young minds are so easily distracted by so much stimuli.

Our first Border Collie was from working lines known to be "hard", meaning they want to do things their way. But as a pup he was one of the brightest we've ever hard and wanted to please. He learned many commands including "go to bed" (go into your crate). One day while my sister was visiting "go to bed" was said during normal conversation (not directed at our pup); when he heard this he hung his head and slinked off to his crate. It's this quick to learn characteristic that gets many new owners into trouble; when their mind is not occupied they will find a "problem to solve" which you may not like.

* This post was edited 05/05/14 07:46am by BCSnob *


Posted By: chele on 05/05/14 07:49am

Thanks Mark! I was hoping you would respond, knowing BC's like you do. Less than 24 hours but no accidents! Near miss last night, but he stopped and ran towards the door when I said no. He's NOT my dog, but it seems the housebreaking is falling to me. Bleh.

Go Dogs, at this point we are a household of four alpha's, with me being the ultimate alpha because I am the meanest. Sandy (my dog) was adopted at 7 y/o. All she has to be is a dog. She is obedient only when I posture. She hates the puppy. Hubby is more tolerant but when he says jump Patches had better jump. We will get it figured out. He WILL be neutered; he is already humping *gah*!!


Posted By: BCSnob on 05/05/14 08:27am

Sounds like he is willing to go outside since he understands your correction about going inside. I wonder if he is giving sublte cues that he wants to go out that you are not seeing them. These cues can be very subtle (and vary with each pup) and unless you are watching him 100% of the time (hard to do) you may miss them.


Posted By: JamesBr on 05/05/14 09:29am

at 11 weeks its a little earlier then I would expect a breeder to let a pup go, but thats just a week shy of 3 months so I cannot complain.

For the potty training, the more active they are the more often they need to go out. I went with the BC close cousin in the form of an Australian Shepered. She was miss ADHD super hyper active puppy, and the more she played the more oops we had in the house. Right now focus on house breaking him, but by 4 months he is going to become a handful if you dont find him a job to do and start training him.

My aussie we started with fetch at 4ish months starting from about 6 feet away and actually bringing it back till about 6 months where I think she could have outrun a potatoe gun (never tried it but tempted.) During her obediance training (seriously join a class if your in the burbs) as its great refresher for anyone and great for the dogs social skills with other pups. During that time I learned the trainer had schools for agility. Brandy trained well but would never be competition, she would ignore me and run the weave polls just to show off.

We stuck with fetch and a harry homeowner version of jump ball. And to date the only thing I never got her trained to do was to load a modified ball thrower (detuned for a smaller yard) by herself. She insists on dropping the ball at my feet or throwing it at me (yes some are smart enough to figure it out.)

Best of luck on the energizer puppy.


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Posted By: BCSnob on 05/05/14 09:40am

We got our first pup at 6 weeks of age; the law in MD is now 8 weeks of age.

Our mothers have been done nursing the pups by 5 weeks of age (think sharp puppy teeth) and till they were dried up spent lots of time correcting pups for trying to nurse and trying to avoid the mob of pups wanting to nurse.

There is lots of debate as to the best age for pups to leave; 8 weeks is close to one of the first fear stages in Border Collies and may not be the best time to change a puppy's environment. Before the fear stages may be better for the pups.

* This post was last edited 05/05/14 10:06am by BCSnob *


Posted By: Deb and Ed M on 05/05/14 03:10pm

Well, most of my dogs have been the half-witted Aussies (wink!) or some mix thereof. If they could be taught by 9 weeks old, to ring a bell to go outside - your BC can learn it in a day. That way, if the dog trots past the door, and you missed the cue - you'd at least hear the bell? Because pups need to go out NOW.

I just hung a dog-collar bell from a string on the door that leads to the yard - as you open the door, say "go outside?" and ding the bell. They catch on real quick.

And I also agree that limiting the water access at first, will help? And having an older dog in the house? might help - when Jimmy was just 8 weeks old, he peed in the house, and Ike walked over, sniffed the puddle - then looked at Jimmy as if to say "DUDE! We don't do that in the house!". Jimmy never peed in the house after that! Ben took a few weeks - but he was SO tiny and the runt; and by then Ike had gone on to Rainbow places.....


Posted By: chele on 05/05/14 09:34pm

We brought him home at 10 weeks. Seems like a reasonable age to me.

*proud mama brag*

He went to the door three times today!! What a smart boy! We are still limiting water access ( all the water he wants, just not access to it all the time) and yes, I do think hubby has been missing cues. I'm helping more now. Now that Patches knows we are dense he is putting more effort into making his needs known. Like rattling the empty food pan to let us know he wants water [emoticon] The bell idea might work. I also thought I might him to speak. I taught my Callie dog to bark when she wanted out. Very handy.


Yesterday the lights went on and now he's a fetching fool! Won't touch the puppy size tennis-type ball, but he loves to fetch his sqeaky frog!

He's also getting pretty good on the leash. He gets fed up and throws himself down, but he's learning fast. He must be on the leash outdoors at all times now, since he showed us our yard is not secure for a dog his size. I ordered fencing, which will be here Friday. Guess we'll be building fence this weekend.


Posted By: BCSnob on 05/06/14 06:14am

Be aware that once you have tossed an item (toy, rock, stick, shoe, glove, etc) for a Border Collie that knows fetch:
1. that dog will continue to bring the item to you to be tossed until your arm falls off
2. fetch increases a Border Collie's physical stamina without tiring the dog for long
3. that item is only good for tossing and is no longer good for self amusement


Posted By: Deb and Ed M on 05/06/14 07:09am

BCSnob wrote:

Be aware that once you have tossed an item (toy, rock, stick, shoe, glove, etc) for a Border Collie that knows fetch:
1. that dog will continue to bring the item to you to be tossed until your arm falls off
2. fetch increases a Border Collie's physical stamina without tiring the dog for long
3. that item is only good for tossing and is no longer good for self amusement


ROFL!!!!!!!

That might apply to Aussies and "poos", too. Ben is a "Fetchin' Fool" and you're right - once something is thrown, it's never simply a toy to be played with solo.....


Posted By: Dog Folks on 05/06/14 07:25am

BCSnob wrote:

Be aware that once you have tossed an item (toy, rock, stick, shoe, glove, etc) for a Border Collie that knows fetch:
1. that dog will continue to bring the item to you to be tossed until your arm falls off
2. fetch increases a Border Collie's physical stamina without tiring the dog for long
3. that item is only good for tossing and is no longer good for self amusement


You need one of these! Automatic Tennis Ball Launcher


Posted By: BCSnob on 05/06/14 07:28am

Making a very physically fit and mentally bored Border Collie.[emoticon]


Posted By: Go Dogs on 05/06/14 10:45am

Not to mention, whenever the dog is dictating your behavior-you are not the pack leader.


Posted By: resmas on 05/06/14 07:36pm

BCSnob wrote:

Be aware that once you have tossed an item (toy, rock, stick, shoe, glove, etc) for a Border Collie that knows fetch:
1. that dog will continue to bring the item to you to be tossed until your arm falls off
2. fetch increases a Border Collie's physical stamina without tiring the dog for long
3. that item is only good for tossing and is no longer good for self amusement


Regarding #3 -

Our BC's will drop their balls down the stairs, chase them down to the bottom, bring them back to the top, drop them again. Over and over and over and....

Sadie our BC also LOVED the infant stage of our boys - where they where just learning to sit and throw, and would sit in one spot and throw what ever she brought them. Of course, they could only throw it about 3', but they would do it forever, and giggle the whole time. That infectious little baby giggle that they soon outgrow....


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Posted By: chele on 05/06/14 08:28pm

BCSnob wrote:

Be aware that once you have tossed an item (toy, rock, stick, shoe, glove, etc) for a Border Collie that knows fetch:
1. that dog will continue to bring the item to you to be tossed until your arm falls off
2. fetch increases a Border Collie's physical stamina without tiring the dog for long
3. that item is only good for tossing and is no longer good for self amusement
I knooooooooooooow (hear that as a plaintive whine!)
Argh!!! LOL
He didn't even nap this evening!!
Really looking forward to being able to them outside to play fetch after we build fence this weekend!

He went for his first "real" walk tonight! I took Patches and Sandy for a walk around the block. Patches did surprizingly well for a pup that barely knows how to walk on a leash.


Posted By: chele on 05/07/14 10:40pm

Thought I'd post a picture of the little monster. Guess I'll have to wait until photobucket is done with maintenance.

* This post was last edited 05/07/14 11:00pm by chele *


Posted By: chele on 05/08/14 04:30am

Ta da!
[image]


Posted By: xteacher on 05/08/14 05:08am

He's a cutie! I'd get him in puppy kindergarten ASAP! Mental exercise will wear an intelligent dog out much faster than physical exercise. Boxers (used to have them) are much like these dogs - super intelligent and easily bored; almost impossible to wear out, physically. Training sessions should be short (10 minutes) while young, especially for an intelligent breed, to avoid boredom, resulting in refusal to comply.

Is he food driven? Play hide and seek games. Hide pieces of kibble (only one piece per hiding place) around the house. Start out easy (a piece by a chair where he can see it), progressing up to pieces hidden in hard to find places. Teach the "find it" command. At first, lead him to the "prize", saying "find it". He's so smart, it shouldn't take too long for him to catch on. Obviously, don't let him see you hiding the pieces of kibble (kennel him or have DH take him outside while you hide the treats). Remember to take out the amount of kibble used at meal time for such games to avoid your dog gaining too much weight.

You can also hide yourself in increasingly hard places (DH needs to help you hold him while you hide), and let him find you. You can say, "find me". This is also good for having the dog always be aware of where you are and is helpful if he gets loose and you want him to come to you. Making it a game comes in handy when this happens.

Another option is to get some dog puzzles that have kibble put in them. The dog has to figure out how to get the kibble out. These puzzles come in varying levels of difficulty. This could be a way of feeding your dog and mentally exercising him at the same time.


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Posted By: chele on 05/08/14 07:14am

I bought him a Kong type toy and put kibble in it. Getting harder ones would be fun! He goes to work at the ranch with hubby everyday, keeps him busy. The evenings are toughest because he runs out of things to do. Last night we took both dogs for a walk. When we got home I picked up all his toys and played with him with each one. It really had him playing hard! He is getting good at fetch (the ADHD thing gets in the way a bit) and learning to "give". He'll learn all kinds of things as they become age/attention span appropriate. NOT a fan of him finding me, hubby wore me thin on that with his previous dog. Patches does seem to have a great nose though. I used to be an EMT and would love to do Search and Rescue or even have a Cadaver dog. Who knows.


Posted By: chele on 05/10/14 12:53pm

We're getting there! We had no accidents at all yesterday.

We got the fencing up last night so Patches was able to be out for a while. It was very nice to have a break.

Hubby now has him sitting before throwing a toy for fetch. Smart puppy!


Posted By: chele on 05/10/14 08:38pm

Deb and Ed he is using his bell! I hung it on the door then used cat kibble to teach him to ring it. Then when he did, we took him outside. He's only had one "false alarm" so far!


Posted By: Deb and Ed M on 05/11/14 07:24am

chele wrote:

Deb and Ed he is using his bell! I hung it on the door then used cat kibble to teach him to ring it. Then when he did, we took him outside. He's only had one "false alarm" so far!


Awesome!!!

I love the picture of him sleeping on a boot - that's SO "herder" ("Gotta be as close as possible to my people"). Ike (Aussie) always used my tennis shoes for a pillow, whether my feet were in them or not...LOL!! He finally learned to untie them, and pull them off my feet - THEN take a nap....


Posted By: chele on 05/11/14 08:17pm

Deb and Ed M wrote:

chele wrote:

Deb and Ed he is using his bell! I hung it on the door then used cat kibble to teach him to ring it. Then when he did, we took him outside. He's only had one "false alarm" so far!


Awesome!!!

I love the picture of him sleeping on a boot - that's SO "herder" ("Gotta be as close as possible to my people"). Ike (Aussie) always used my tennis shoes for a pillow, whether my feet were in them or not...LOL!! He finally learned to untie them, and pull them off my feet - THEN take a nap....
Awwwwwwwwwww how cute! They have their ways, don't they?

Today he discovered how much fun it is to play in the big water bowl/tank outside! Then he learned how long it takes to air dry outside. And then he got his first brushing to get the dried mud off! Busy day; he's sleeping it off now.


Posted By: BCSnob on 05/12/14 07:13am

We do love our smooth coats (faster drying, dirt falls off faster, and cockleburs are easier to remove).

Happy to hear you're having more success with house breaking.


We've noticed my Lee has been lifting his leg while peeing (7 weeks old).

* This post was edited 05/12/14 07:20am by BCSnob *


Posted By: chele on 05/12/14 07:51pm

Lifting at 7 weeks?? Wow. Patches is 12; such an underacheiver!

A little backsliding on the house breaking. 1. He found out how much fun it is to ring the bell and watch the fat old lady jump out of her chair. 2. He can squat and pee faster than I can yell "No!" I was lucky enough to already be up and catch him in the act during his first accident yesterday so I applied the "3 second rule" and then took him outside where he completed his business on command and was praised.

He is filthy, he may get his first bath tomorrow. His dampness + dirt = grey instead of white.


Posted By: BCSnob on 05/13/14 05:55am

chele wrote:

He found out how much fun it is to ring the bell
I've been waiting for this post.
First they learn to signal when they need to go out then they realize that if they signal they get to go out.

You may find that a good brushing with fine toothed comb/brush will remove most of the dirt. Brushing will not help with the dampness; our first Border Collie had a heavy rough coat such that when he got wet frequently he would mildew.


Posted By: BCSnob on 05/13/14 06:12am

chele wrote:

He can squat and pee faster than I can yell "No!"
Time to learn to reconize their thoughts about doing something not just the beginning of their actions. Once they have decided to do something it can be difficult to stop it since they can be very focused and fast.

We find this especially true when teaching them to work livestock. They will telegraph their intentions but the cues may be subtle (frequently in their eyes) and we have had to learn to look for these cues.

Your pup is going through motions right before he pees. Learn to reconize what these motions are and time your response (suggestion to go out and eventially a correction to not go inside) while he is still thinking about peeing.

Learn to out think your dog.


Posted By: Brett K on 05/13/14 12:09pm

I love BCs. We dogsit one often and she is so much fun. We currently have a mini Aussie and she is 2 now and a great pet. Yes, she herds the kids. But, my kids need to be herded once in a while. lol

Have you put a fence in. It may not be necessary. Radio fence worked great for our dog and the BC we watch. She figured out the boundaries in a few minutes and we don't even use the collar except once or twice a month as a refresher.

It sounds like you are the perfect home for a BC to me. Keep up the good work!


Posted By: chele on 05/13/14 08:27pm

Things are starting to work. Finally. I think. Fingers crossed it's not just a fluke. Again!
We are getting better at reading him. The bell is gone. I couldn't take it anymore. Patches is pretty subtle in his cue to go out. We've had luck most evenings. Tonight has been a breakthrough, I hope.

Working livestock. Ohhhhhh boy. Are BC's supposed to bark when they work? So far all he has done is bark at my horse. Which I detest. I don't want him to bark when working either.

Thanks Brett!


Posted By: stitchinsue on 05/13/14 09:39pm

I have an Australian Shepherd. The best thing I did was to clicker train him. Best thing ever, and it is so so so easy. When you have a chance, read about Karen Pryor, and even better, watch the youtube channel of Kikopup. She is an amazing clicker trainer. My dog will ignore a hot dog left on a table, at his level, because of the training I did with him. For the first couple of weeks we had him (I brought him home when he was 6 weeks), I hand fed him. My boys (2 and 7 at the time) also sat by his food bowl, dipped their hands into his bowl and fed him from their hands. It's fantastic that he will be on a ranch! Lucky dog!


Posted By: BCSnob on 05/14/14 07:01am

Border Collies do not bark while working.

They will bark when they uncertain or are playing (flushing livestock off a fence). You can tell by their tails if they are serious or not. The tails on Border Collies that are serious are down to tucked up under their belly; when their tails are up high they are uncertain or playing.

Try to break the bad habit of what we call "fence rage"; barking and racing along a fence line to get a reaction (or to flush off the fence) animals on the other side of the fence. We use "that'll do" or "leave it" when they are paying inappropriate attention to something followed by a redirection of their attention to something appropriate.


Posted By: chele on 05/14/14 07:10am

Stichinsue, I've had a oot of people recommemd clicker training. I'm not sure if hubby would try that or not. He is frustrated because Patch doesn't pay any attention to his voice so maybe now is a good time to bring it up.

If hubby didn't take him to work at the ranch with him everyday I would have strenuously resisted a BC! My first husband had a BC that he dumped off on me after I left him. She dug up every mole, vole, mouse, gopher, and rabbit tunnel she could find. She found a lot. It was back breaking fixing the damage. She was neurotic or something too. Just not quite right. I would never recommend a BC to anyone that can't keep them busy!


Posted By: BCSnob on 05/14/14 10:22am

How much time does your husband spend with your pup when your pup is calm? I too find it frustrating to bond with a pup when the only time I see a pup is when it is "wide open"; hard to make a connection when the pup cannot focus on me. Your husband needs to carry a small stash of treats with him at all times when around the pup. When the pup comes to him (on its own or when called) he should dispense a treat. Your pup won't take long to learn that your husband is the dispenser of good things. I also like to find a special game to play with each of my pups that they like to play; it's our game played during our time. With my first dog we played tug with him loosely holding my curled finger with his canine tooth; with others I play keep away with a toy with me pushing them away while they try to get in to grab the toy. With my Peg I try to touch or grab her front paws while she dances around trying to avoid being touched.

All I can tell clicker training does is teaches the human timing to correctly cue the dog when it has responded correctly thereby cuing the dog when correct response has been given and removes emotion for the “marking” of correct behavior.


Posted By: BCSnob on 05/14/14 10:38am

The closest sheepdog or cattledog trials I can find to you are 3-4 hrs away. These are events where you can see just how much these dogs can do once trained.

Here are links to our event calendars by livestock
USBCHA Sheepdog Trials
USBCHA Cattledog Trials

There are events held on a ranch in Bartlesville, OK.

* This post was edited 05/14/14 10:45am by BCSnob *


Posted By: agilitygirl on 05/14/14 03:56pm

Francesca Knowles wrote:

And as is well known, Borders herd by nipping at heels.


Pretty sure you mean Aussies and Cattle Dogs herd by the nip. Border Collies herd using the "eye" and force of will. Want to see that in action, come visit me, lol. BCs will bite and hold the wool of sheep that do not respect the eye, but that's a last resort. BCs that are around children will circle. Typically, either clockwise ("come bye"), or counterwise ("away to me").

I have two BCs. Love the intelligence.


Posted By: chele on 05/14/14 06:06pm

Sorry BC, I must have been typing when you posted!
I do not allow him to bark at my horse at all! He is uncertain for sure. Blue, my horse, could care less. It is kind of fun to see Blue snort at Patches! LOL So far he has shown no sign of running the fence between them and is down to barking only when Blue is in the back yard grazing. Yes, we ARE that redneck [emoticon]

Unfortunately, nobody pays any attention at the ranch and worse yet, my husbands Dad/partner has a Kelpie that barks at the horses (not the cattle).

Hubby spends a lot of quiet time with Patches in the truck. He is a very good boy in the truck, even on his first ride home! In the evening typically they get home about time for the evening feeding. This is followed by intense play by Patches as he is reunited with each.and.every.one.of.his.toys. (seriously!) then a nap. Outside then playtime with us. Outside then bed.

I think treats are a good idea. Hubby's voice is deep and gruff. If he raises his voice it sounds harsh. Patches can completely ignore him, drives him nuts. He really needs to get a good recall on Patches.

I agree on the clicker training, actually. I keep my tone friendly, say "Patches, No!" followed by "Good boy" so he knows he made the right choice. He does pretty good for me which drives hubby crazy. Skeeter was so intuitive she just knew what he wanted and desperately wanted to please. Patches is not Skeeter. He is a clown, full of life and looking for adventure. Very spontaneous and ADHD. Pleasing his human is not his first priority. He does best with positive reinforcement and he would rather be yelled at than ignored.

It's mostly all good though, he is so much fun! He does somersaults and zoomies with his squeaky toys. He's pretty good at fetch, but not obsessed (Thankfully!!!) And when he is sleeping he is adorable.

I play "Toesies" with my dog too!

I just love dogs [emoticon]


Posted By: chele on 05/14/14 06:19pm

Thanks for the links BC! We've seen sheep worked; there is a guy in town that used to do the sheep trials. He also used to use his dogs at the Dodge City Days mutton bustin' so we saw them work there. There is another guy in town that raises and trains BC's for cattle work but I haven't really seen his dogs work. I think it would be really handy to have a good dog working the cattle, especially the hulls. I hate bulls.

Do you do agility with them agilitygirl? (Sorry if I'm asking a really stupid question, I'm good at that) I think that would be fun!


Posted By: BCSnob on 05/15/14 06:10am

Our neighbor has cattle and needs friends to come help him bring the cattle in from the field and push into the cute for worming. We simple stand at the gate and send a dog.

We can load sheep onto a trailer simply by having a funnel around the open trailer (parking the trailer next to a building, or using a fence line, or using gate pannels) and then have a dog bring the sheep to the mounth of the funnel and then push them onto the trailer. A trained dog makes managing our sheep so much easier.

Lately we have been "strip grazing" a pasture using portable electric fence. There is no water within the strip, so we use a dog (or two) to move the flock (about 180 ewes & lambs) from the strip to a water source, back to the strip, and from the barn yard at night and the strip during the day. Google maps show our strip grazing from last summer: Strip Grazing Meadow You can see at the map marker the most recent strip and then to the east you can see two previous strips where the grass has greened up.


Posted By: chele on 05/15/14 06:48am

Yes! That is just what we need a dog to do. Load bulls, and help with the alley. I think dogs could be a real help when we round up cattle too. It's getting harder to find mounted help. We have some rugged terrain so the cattle have lots of places to hide. They also use the terrain to get away from us. A well trained dog could help with that.


Posted By: chele on 06/05/14 10:22am

Just a little update. Patches has trained us pretty well, so we are much better at anticipating his toilet needs. He is, however, nowhere near housebroke. He is still perfectly happy to pee on the floor, even if he just came in. We take him out to be sure he goes! He has been to the vet. No big deal, if he ruins the carpet before we finally get him housebroke I'm going to get new carpet!


Posted By: chele on 06/05/14 10:24am

Just a little update. Patches has trained us pretty well, so we are much better at anticipating his toilet needs. He is, however, nowhere near housebroke. He is still perfectly happy to pee on the floor, even if he just came in. We take him out to be sure he goes! He has been to the vet. No big deal, if he ruins the carpet before we finally get him housebroke I'm going to get new carpet!


Posted By: BCSnob on 06/05/14 10:30am

We watch both of ours when they are outside to ensure we know they have emptied their tanks. Does yours not empty himself outside when he goes (a little here, a little there, etc) or is he too busy outside with other things to empty his tanks and you thought he did?

Ours are running to the door to go out (they don't wait long at the door) but ours still go inside sometimes, typically because we are not watching them closely enough. My wife had to clean up smeared poop on the tile floor in the mudroom earlier this week. A ram lamb got out of the barnyard and she thought putting him back would take very little time; so she left Grant and Lee loose. The chore took longer than expected and by the time she got back they had pooped and then stepped in it spreading it around the floor.

Lee has decided that "catch me if you can" is a fun game to play (I don't play it); now he drags a long line every time he goes outside. This has changed his attitude about coming since we can enforce it. Without the line he would look at us when we called (even while offering a treat) and then run the other way.

* This post was edited 06/05/14 10:37am by BCSnob *


Posted By: chele on 06/05/14 02:53pm

Well, he goes on command, and he seems to empty his tank completely. He goes to the door and throws himself at it.
He peed right in front of me during a really loud thunderstorm, but I forgive him for that, because it scared the pee out of me too!
Thankfully he has only pooped once.
He will lay on his belly, stretched out, then lift a leg a bit and pee!!! He still does his dribble thing while playing - but not always. We might go a day without having to clean a pee spot.
Patch thought he was was too cool to come when called, so he is on the leash to and from the truck. He is a perfect angel in the truck and at the ranch. When George does not go to work Patches is a demon! I've started breaking him to running with my bike. He is so young though that I am being careful with his joints.


Posted By: kellem on 06/05/14 08:10pm

Our BC pup's took a couple of months to totally house break.

I've owned many dogs over the years and BC's are by FAR the best dog's I've had. They have a wonderful personality and crave just being a part of the family.

They need exercise and once an adult are the most obedient dog you'll find.

Mine goes Kayaking,backpacking,mtnbiking,camping,fishing and to school to pick up the kids.

And get this....He'll even lay below my tree-stand without batting an eye while I'm hunting then tracks my deer after the shot.

Yes,be patient with him. You'll be well rewarded [emoticon]


Posted By: BCSnob on 06/06/14 05:06am

Our two will have a big social outting tomorrow. We are giving herding demos and I'm expecting that while grandma Peg and aunt Nell will impress the crowds with what they can do on the sheep, Grant & Lee will steel the show with their charms during the Q&As.

We run our adults alongside our UTV for exercise and the boys enjoy wathcing them run while they ride in one of our laps. I think they would prefer to run with the big dogs but they are not ready. Right now our boys would get lost in the waist deep grass in the fields.


Posted By: rainy029 on 06/06/14 01:35pm

I have a Australian Shepard that is a year and a half. Basically the same breed as a BC. She was going outside regularly by 4 mths during the day. The nights took a little longer. She would wake me up AFTER she went potty to go outside. But all was good at about 6 months.


1992 25ft Chataeu
2003 Chevy Avalanche 2500 8.1L



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