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Topic: Need Help Wiring Inverter.

Posted By: glamisduner on 12/05/15 03:39pm

I'm going to be purchasing this Auto Switch, and this inverter:

PowerMax PMTS-30 30 Amp Automatic Transfer Switch
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002I04A74?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=ox_sc_act_title_2&smid=A2X8N6V4HT8DJJ

Xantrex 806-1210 PROwatt 1000 SW Inverter
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006FLT0IG?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=ox_sc_act_title_1&smid=A2VHGGOHXF24LJ

But using only these the problem will be that I have no way to stop the inverter from trying to charge the trailer battery other than switching off the breaker. And I also would like a way to turn off the inverter when we are not using it to avoid power drain.

So I was wondering where I can purchase an on/on switch that would allow me to Turn Inverter On while shutting the battery charger off, and Enable Battery charger to run while turning the Inverter off.

Obviously the switch would need to handle both 12V and 110.

Here is a diagram.

Thanks!
[image]trailer_inverter_wiring by glamisduner, on Flickr

Link to picture
https://flic.kr/p/BHbaMw


Posted By: RJsfishin on 12/05/15 04:06pm

You buy an inverter w/ a remote switch on it.

And an ATS take the converter out of the system


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Posted By: Sam Spade on 12/05/15 04:13pm

glamisduner wrote:

I'm going to be purchasing this Auto Switch, and this inverter:


Why? Seriously.
Without studying the diagram and notes closely it looks like overkill to me.

I hope you realize that to get 1KW out of the inverter, it will require close to 100 amps at 12 V input. That will require some seriously thick 12 V cables and connectors to keep from overheating.


Posted By: glamisduner on 12/05/15 04:37pm

RJsfishin wrote:

You buy an inverter w/ a remote switch on it.

And an ATS take the converter out of the system

Huh? What pure sine inverter comes with a remote switch that won't break the bank? How would that remote switch shut off the 110v battery charger charger? Why would I want to have to toggle 2 switches instead of one?
You can add a remote switch to this inverter:
http://www.amazon.com/Xantrex-808-9001-PROwatt-Remote-Switch/dp/B002W87JNO/ref=sr_1_2?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1449358864&sr=1-2&keywords=Xantrex+switch
But then I would still have to remember to turn off the breaker to the battery charger when using it, and also to turn it back on when running the generator to charge the batteries.

Perhaps I could use this switch plus a 5 pin relay to turn on the battery charger when the switch is off? If so, can I feed 12v as the sense circuit, but 110v as the power source for the relay?


Sam Spade wrote:

glamisduner wrote:

I'm going to be purchasing this Auto Switch, and this inverter:


Why? Seriously.
Without studying the diagram and notes closely it looks like overkill to me.

I hope you realize that to get 1KW out of the inverter, it will require close to 100 amps at 12 V input. That will require some seriously thick 12 V cables and connectors to keep from overheating.


Why not? Do you have a better suggestions? I was thinking to run some 4ga or 0ga wire from the battery to the inverter, it will pull up to 115amps at 100% load according to reviews. Would a 600 watt inverter work better instead? Friends are suggesting I get a 2kw inverter and more batteries, so I thought 1000w would be enough. However if I should go lower please share your reasoning!

What about the diagram is overkill? The on/on switch? Do you have a better solution to running the whole trailer off an inverter and ATS that will guarantee you don't leave the inverter pumping power back into the battery via the battery charger?

Please share your ideas!

* This post was edited 12/05/15 05:25pm by glamisduner *


Posted By: RJsfishin on 12/05/15 05:08pm

If you don't want to spend the money, say so. Most would buy an inverter w/ a remote switch on it. Otherwise switch the DC input to where ever you want it..
To install a 30 amp ATS, chop the shore power cord, and bring both ends to their place on the ATS, Then bring the inv AC output to the 3rd spot on the ATS. You're done w/ that.
Now disconnect the 120v converter circuit from its existing source, and connect it to the shore power terminal on the ATS, so its powered in the shore power position only. I installed a 15 amp inline fuse in the hot wire to the converter.


Posted By: KD4UPL on 12/05/15 05:17pm

The simplest solution is to purchase an inverter/charger with a built in transfer switch. You would connect your shore power cord and generator to one transfer switch and the output of that switch to the inverter/charger AC input. When it received AC power from either source it would pass it thru and charge your batteries. When the AC power disappeared it would supply your loads from the batteries.
If you want 1,000 watts and pure sine wave I would suggest a Magnum MMS1012.
I tend to think that a 1,000 watt inverter is an odd size. It's not large enough to run many microwaves, coffee makers, hair dryers, etc. However, it's much larger than necessary to run a TV, DVD, computer, etc. For the small stuff a 600 watt is usually plenty. For larger appliances a 2,000 watt is necessary.


Posted By: glamisduner on 12/05/15 05:31pm

KD4UPL wrote:

The simplest solution is to purchase an inverter/charger with a built in transfer switch. You would connect your shore power cord and generator to one transfer switch and the output of that switch to the inverter/charger AC input. When it received AC power from either source it would pass it thru and charge your batteries. When the AC power disappeared it would supply your loads from the batteries.
If you want 1,000 watts and pure sine wave I would suggest a Magnum MMS1012.
I tend to think that a 1,000 watt inverter is an odd size. It's not large enough to run many microwaves, coffee makers, hair dryers, etc. However, it's much larger than necessary to run a TV, DVD, computer, etc. For the small stuff a 600 watt is usually plenty. For larger appliances a 2,000 watt is necessary.


I thought that might be the case, we only have 2 batteries for now and I'm not sure where more could be added without building some kinda rack (It's a bumper pull toy hauler). Maybe I will get a 600 watt then, I just figured why not get a 1000 watt so it would work less hard. But in fact a 600 would probably work fine indeed. It would only save me about 50 bucks though.

MMS1012 - This inverter is Far out of my price range. It would be nice to have the switch built in, but not required, it might in my case make the install more difficult.

* This post was edited 12/05/15 07:25pm by glamisduner *


Posted By: 12thgenusa on 12/05/15 05:31pm

I assume the inverter charger is actually a converter.

The ProWatt inverter you describe has to be switched on with a power switch located on the inverter. There is also a remote switch available for about $30. Switching the 12-volts into the inverter will not turn it on.

All you need to do is turn on the inverter, and turn off the converter breaker.

I doubt a DPDT switch that handles high current DC on one side and 120v AC on the other side exists, or if it does would be pricey. It also wouldn't accomplish what you envision.


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Posted By: glamisduner on 12/05/15 05:35pm

12thgenusa wrote:

I assume the inverter charger is actually a converter.

The ProWatt inverter you describe has to be switched on with a power switch located on the inverter. There is also a remote switch available for about $30. Switching the 12-volts into the inverter will not turn it on.

All you need to do is turn on the inverter, and turn off the converter breaker.

I doubt a DPDT switch that handles high current DC on one side and 120v AC on the other side exists, or if it does would be pricey. It also wouldn't accomplish what you envision.


So it's not a battery charger but instead a converter? Is the battery charger located someplace else?

But yea shutting off the converter is the goal.

I have revised a diagram. I think a relay would solve the problem as the ON/On switch is not feasible. I just don't want to have to remember to flip the breaker back on after turning off the inverter.

[image]trailer_inverter_wiring (Revised) by glamisduner, on Flickr


Posted By: 12thgenusa on 12/05/15 05:59pm

The converter is also the battery charger.


Posted By: time2roll on 12/05/15 06:04pm

Go Power has a transfer switch that will isolate the converter.
Might break the bank however.

http://www.boatandrvaccessories.com/gp-power-gp-ts-transfer-switch.html

BTW, where does the utility cord connect?


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Posted By: glamisduner on 12/05/15 06:09pm

smkettner wrote:

Go Power has a transfer switch that will isolate the converter.
Might break the bank however.

http://www.boatandrvaccessories.com/gp-power-gp-ts-transfer-switch.html

BTW, where does the utility cord connect?


Got a link?


Posted By: CJW8 on 12/05/15 06:30pm

I struggled with your dilemma with my first RV. I tried to plug the whole RV onto a 2K inverter and always has to remember to switch off the converter. Wife never remembered. I needed the new RV to be fool proof. I decided all I wanted on my inverter is my outlets. Since the converter is on its own breaker with a dedicated outlet, I left it alone. Then I installed a Xantrex 15Amp transfer switch on the outlets circuit only. It works fine. Sometimes it transferes fast enough that the TV doesn't go off and the sat receiver doesn't reset. Sometimes it doesn't. To fix this, all devices at my entertainment center are now plugged into a UPS. My Xantrex has the remote on/off switch and I would recommend this.


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Posted By: glamisduner on 12/05/15 06:40pm

CJW8 wrote:

I struggled with your dilemma with my first RV. I tried to plug the whole RV onto a 2K inverter and always has to remember to switch off the converter. Wife never remembered. I needed the new RV to be fool proof. I decided all I wanted on my inverter is my outlets. Since the converter is on its own breaker with a dedicated outlet, I left it alone. Then I installed a Xantrex 15Amp transfer switch on the outlets circuit only. It works fine. Sometimes it transferes fast enough that the TV doesn't go off and the sat receiver doesn't reset. Sometimes it doesn't. To fix this, all devices at my entertainment center are now plugged into a UPS. My Xantrex has the remote on/off switch and I would recommend this.


That's what I initially tried with a 150 watt inverter. Blew it up without the ats ...I forgot to turn it off and plugged the trailer into the house lol.

Not all my outlets are on the same breaker though and my refrigerator is on the same circuit as the interior outlets. GFCI outlets are on a separate breaker. But it might be good enough to only power the refrigerator and the interior 3 non GFCI outlets.

* This post was edited 12/05/15 07:28pm by glamisduner *


Posted By: CJW8 on 12/05/15 09:22pm

I actually installed 2 of the ATS's. The other one is on the on the GFI circuit so she plug in her curling iron in the bathroom without starting the gen.


Posted By: 12thgenusa on 12/05/15 10:02pm

I used a six-pole, three-position, center off rotary switch rated at 60 amps for a manual transfer switch.

The converter was wired to the same CB that powered the non-GFCI circuits so I moved it to its own breaker.

Two poles of the switch direct the hot and neutral of the inverter and shore power to the main breaker. The other four poles interrupt power downstream of CBs for the AC, WH, converter and the outlet for the fridge when the inverter position is selected.

When the switch is in the inverter position the MW circuit, GFCI circuits and non-GFCI circuits are all powered. The converter is automatically turned off and the things I can't or don't wish to power from the inverter can't be accidentally turned on.

The transfer switch is usually left in the inverter position since we rarely use FHU. The only thing we have to remember to do is turn on the inverter remote switch.

So far it has been idiot proof.


Posted By: MrWizard on 12/05/15 11:00pm

you only need to switch the the converter on/off
you do not need to switch the DC circuits on the converter or inverter
and you need to turn the inverter on/off which will have its OWN remote switch

i see very little difference in use between a new switch for the converter and the OEM circuit breaker, unless other items/recepticles are also powered by that circuit breaker


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Posted By: Sam Spade on 12/06/15 07:00am

glamisduner wrote:


Why not? Do you have a better suggestions?

Please share your ideas!


Just for starters, it's expensive, complicated and probably unnecessary....and maybe even dangerous if you make one little mistake.

What EXACTLY are you trying to accomplish ? A LOT of people have been getting along for a LOT of years just with the 12 V accessories and appliances that the RVs come with.

For instance.....I have a 12 V small TV. I run my generator morning and evening to run the micorwave and charge the batteries; I run it more if A/C is required.

What do you hope to accomplish that a generator would not do better ???

(If you already have your mind made up then.......never mind.)


Posted By: grizzzman on 12/06/15 10:37am

smkettner wrote:

Go Power has a transfer switch that will isolate the converter.
Might break the bank however.

http://www.boatandrvaccessories.com/gp-power-gp-ts-transfer-switch.html

BTW, where does the utility cord connect?


Most transfer switches can do this. You need to add a fuse to the converter feed and hook them up to the cord side of the transfer switch. In this way when the cord is powered up the converter will be also. Tnen turn off the the timer on the transfer switch. If you are a boondocker then i would suggest you use the relay posts that are normaly closed to the inverter to conserve power.


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Posted By: glamisduner on 12/06/15 12:25pm

grizzzman wrote:

smkettner wrote:

Go Power has a transfer switch that will isolate the converter.
Might break the bank however.

http://www.boatandrvaccessories.com/gp-power-gp-ts-transfer-switch.html

BTW, where does the utility cord connect?


Most transfer switches can do this. You need to add a fuse to the converter feed and hook them up to the cord side of the transfer switch. In this way when the cord is powered up the converter will be also. Tnen turn off the the timer on the transfer switch. If you are a boondocker then i would suggest you use the relay posts that are normaly closed to the inverter to conserve power.


I think I see what your saying, Unhook the converter from the existing breaker and tie it directly to shore power near / In the ATS with a new breaker or fuse. Essentially eliminating the need for the relay.

Sam Spade wrote:

glamisduner wrote:


Why not? Do you have a better suggestions?

Please share your ideas!


Just for starters, it's expensive, complicated and probably unnecessary....and maybe even dangerous if you make one little mistake.

What EXACTLY are you trying to accomplish ? A LOT of people have been getting along for a LOT of years just with the 12 V accessories and appliances that the RVs come with.

For instance.....I have a 12 V small TV. I run my generator morning and evening to run the micorwave and charge the batteries; I run it more if A/C is required.

What do you hope to accomplish that a generator would not do better ???

(If you already have your mind made up then.......never mind.)


Mostly we don't like having to run the generator to plug in chargers, TV, Laptops etc. Our TV is actually a 12V, but it runs off a 110V power brick. It's installed in the roof with a 110v jack right next to it. The only 12V cigarette jack we have is on the side of the trailer in the middle of the cabinets.

For the first few trips we ran an extension cord from a 110v inverter we set inside the cabinet to the power brick hanging from the ceiling. This means we have to leave a cabinet door open, extension cord on the floor + dangling right in the middle of the trailer up to the ceiling. Laptops can only be used by plugging them into the inverter in the cabinet etc.

It's very unsightly. Ideally we would have a 12v TV and plug next to it in the roof but we do not. (at least the plug next to it would have been nice I would have tried to just cut out the power brick and soldered on a cig light plug instead for optimal efficiency)

--------------------

I don't think the setup is that complicated, Basically I install an ATS, and an inverter.

We don't have an RV we have a toy hauler, the only 12v accessory in it is the lights and fans.

Yes the generator works better except it is loud, wastes fuel, and puts a lot of hours on it for doing simple tasks. I also don't like running it during sand storms which is when I end up inside the trailer watching tv. Lots of reasons to want to avoid using the generator every time I need to chjarge a gopro battery etc.


You guys have convinced me to save the $50 and just get the 600 watt inverter instead of the 1000w. Then I can probably get away with running 4ga wire from the battery with a smaller inline fuse. Or maybe I could just tap into the 4ga wire already near the panel? (Would this be ok to do with a 600 watt?)

glamisduner wrote:

smkettner wrote:

Go Power has a transfer switch that will isolate the converter.
Might break the bank however.

http://www.boatandrvaccessories.com/gp-power-gp-ts-transfer-switch.html

BTW, where does the utility cord connect?


Got a link?

I like that switch, however I'm pretty sure I will be working with romex and solid wires so the plugs won't do me any good. We can either plug in shorepower to the trailers primary cord, or plug the trailer into itself to use the generator. Under the refrigerator the cord is terminated into a junction box, from that junction box some romex is run under the trailer and to the panel.

So I would like to add the ATS near the panel, but I'll have to see if there is enough room, otherwise it will go under the refrigerator and I will run new romex to it. Here's some pictures:

Main Panel, there is a removable panel to the left the size of one of the cabinets, I was planning to put ATS and inverter in there.
[image]Main panel by glamisduner, on Flickr

You can see the existing 4ga cable, The small red wire in the block can be removed, I am wondering if I can just add some 4ga wire from that free terminal to power a 600w inverter, but still would have to figure out what to do for ground (Maybe buy a small distro block can be added behind the panel).

This is the the utility plug termination, it's on the opposite side of the trailer under the refrigerator. if I can't fit the ATS switch and inverter in the cabinet, I will essentially be replacing that junction box with the ATS, but this will require running some fresh romex, (2 cables if I want to wire in the converter as well).
[image]Utility plug termination. by glamisduner, on Flickr

* This post was edited 12/06/15 12:53pm by glamisduner *


Posted By: BFL13 on 12/06/15 06:33pm

Welcome new member! You are getting a hard time, but don't worry--it is all really simple. You can be your own ATS by just plugging in the shore power cord to either the :

A. Pedestal or stick house
B. Generator, or
C. Inverter

If inverter, turn off or unplug the converter. Put fridge and water heater on gas (not "auto" for the fridge), and forget the air conditioner.

Now all you need to decide is what 120v items you want to run on inverter. You can run the electric toaster and kettle on a 1000w but you need a 2000w to run the microwave (plus lots of battery bank).

You do need your generator and a portable charger or converter switched on to recharge the batteries during "generator hours" or after "quiet time" later on, next day or whenever you get down to 50% battery.

For more on what size inverter to get or whether you need two, see:

http://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/28673682.cfm


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Posted By: grizzzman on 12/06/15 07:31pm

Looks like its 6 guage wire to me.


Posted By: glamisduner on 12/06/15 07:32pm

grizzzman wrote:

Looks like its 6 guage wire to me.


I You might be right, it's certainly larger than 8ga though.

I ended up ordering the powmax switch, and a samlex 600 watt inverter and remote switch (I trust that brand more, and since I'm using a less powerful inverter I'd rather go with a known good brand).

I haven't done much with 110V electrical in the past. Can I remove the existing converter's breaker and replace it's input wire with a new wire tied to shore power (before or at the junction for the ATS?) Or do I need to buy a new breaker and maybe install it in the ATS box? it would be much harder to access in the box if I ever had to flip it as it will be installed behind the cabinet panel.

* This post was edited 12/07/15 01:00am by glamisduner *


Posted By: glamisduner on 12/09/15 01:04pm

Ok so I got A samlex 600 watt inverter, and remote switch, and ATS.

I have 3 more questions I need to figure out.

The wire run will be somewhere around 12 to 14 feet to reach the installation area (so I can install next to the main panel).

Manual says I need to run 1/0awg wire for a 10 foot run with an 80 amp fuse. That's huge!

According to other charts it looks like 4ga wire would be plenty. The inverter itself looks like it will only take in 4awg wire so if I ave to run 0ga I'll need a distribution block to step down the wire size to 4awg before going into the inverter. Can I get away with just running 4awg fine stranded car audio wire?

Finally to make it easier to bypass the 120v->12v converter I have decided to instead run power from the main breaker to the ATS, and run the output from the ATS into the lower breaker (it has 15 15 amp breakers on it they provide power to all the trailer outlets).

My problem is I don't know if it is possible to run the output line of the ATS into the existing breaker, it looks like these breakers pop onto the main buss? Is there a way I ca run a wire to the input side of he 15/15 breaker but leave it mounted where it is?

Finally, Do I really need to ground the inverter to the frame? It has +, -, and ground inputs and suggests grounding it to the vehicle frame

I have attached some pictures.

[image]trailer_inverter_wiring_revised by glamisduner, on Flickr

This is the new wiring diagram, does not need any relays, and isolates the converter as well as will not allow high output devices to appear to be on and ready to use.

[image]2015-12-09_11-43-58 by glamisduner, on Flickr

The dual bottom breaker is the one I need to isolate from the main buss now. Is there a way I can cut off the post it is plugged into and instead feed a wire to it? Maybe I can cut the buss and bolt the ATS wire into the lower 1/2 of it?

[image]2015-12-09_11-44-37 by glamisduner, on Flickr

Finally an approximate location of where I plan to install the inverter and ATS.

[image]2015-12-09_12-03-14 by glamisduner, on Flickr

Thanks in advance!


Posted By: Ron3rd on 12/09/15 05:52pm

To the OP, it depends on what you're going to use the inverter to power. In my case, I use a 300w Samlex PSW inverter to power only the tvs and maybe a dvd player. For this use the 300w inverter is kind of the sweet spot. I, and several other members on this board have the inverters 120v output wired to a receptacle and plug the shore cord into the receptacle, powering all the outlets in the trailer. I turn off the converter/charger, and everything else except the breaker that powers the AC outlets in the trailer. This keeps wiring to a minimum and reduces cost quite a bit.


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Posted By: glamisduner on 12/09/15 06:10pm

Ron3rd wrote:

To the OP, it depends on what you're going to use the inverter to power. In my case, I use a 300w Samlex PSW inverter to power only the tvs and maybe a dvd player. For this use the 300w inverter is kind of the sweet spot. I, and several other members on this board have the inverters 120v output wired to a receptacle and plug the shore cord into the receptacle, powering all the outlets in the trailer. I turn off the converter/charger, and everything else except the breaker that powers the AC outlets in the trailer. This keeps wiring to a minimum and reduces cost quite a bit.

Yes I could do that as well, the problem is my Girl remembering to do this every time and then remembering to turn back on the breakers for the charger when the battery drains.

I just need to find a dual 15 amp breaker with an input terminal as I won't be able to power it off the main power source. I don't know where to find such a breaker though.


Posted By: BFL13 on 12/09/15 06:19pm

I would use #4 for sure. 600w (if you ever used that many at once--not likely) would pull 60 amps from the battery bank, and #4 is good for 100 amps.

Some inverter manuals say you need fat enough wire to also to take their surge limits, usually twice the regular limit. So they might be fussing about 1200w and 120 amps (but the 80a fuse doesn't match that)

No idea about breakers etc.

No, you don't need to "ground" the inverter, but it could have a "chassis ground lug" on it. that takes a wire (#8 usually specified) to go to the trailer's frame. That is supposed to reduce RF interference with the TV showing lines across the picture, or ruining your neighbour's ham radio work. Otherwise the inverter only needs a neg and pos wire to the battery pos and neg posts and the battery does not need a neg ground wire if all it does is power the inverter.

Most times the battery is also powering other things in the rig which have the frame as their neg paths, so the battery must be grounded to the frame to complete those neg paths. But the inverter doesn't need that. It has the chassis ground just for RF reduction.

NEVER bring the chassis ground over to the inverter's Neg input terminal. It must go to the frame separately.

* This post was edited 12/09/15 06:31pm by BFL13 *


Posted By: time2roll on 12/09/15 10:07pm

Transfer switch will not be able to backfeed the main panel.
You need a subpanel to break out the inverter items.


Posted By: glamisduner on 12/09/15 10:39pm

smkettner wrote:

Transfer switch will not be able to backfeed the main panel.
You need a subpanel to break out the inverter items.


I don't understand, I don't want it to backfeed the main panel, that's the whole idea of not feeding the main panel with the ats. I just want to run one dual breaker off the ats output. Do I really need a whole subpanel for one breaker?


Posted By: time2roll on 12/09/15 11:05pm

If the generator is running and someone turns on the inverter they will both feed the same bus and the smoke comes out of one or both.

Yes you could switch some breakers manually but then why bother with the ATS.

If you just need one branch circuit then it could come right off the ATS.
Might get by with two circuits off the ATS depending on loads.

Have you mapped all five circuits?

-------

As for wire I would just use the max that the terminals are rated. I recommend battery cable over speaker wire.

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Posted By: MrWizard on 12/10/15 12:06am

glamisduner wrote:

smkettner wrote:

Transfer switch will not be able to backfeed the main panel.
You need a subpanel to break out the inverter items.


I don't understand, I don't want it to backfeed the main panel, that's the whole idea of not feeding the main panel with the ats. I just want to run one dual breaker off the ats output. Do I really need a whole subpanel for one breaker?


a box with one or two circuit breakers
can be a sub panel or a switch box, depending on how its wired
coming from the ats to a dedicated circuit Not powered by anything else
it is both a switch box and protected circuit at the same time

a sub-panel in RV context with a generator, shore, and inverter
is s selection of one or more circuts that can be powered by shore/gnerater switched by main ats,
and also powered by just the inverter
in other words that panel has multiple possible power sources
it isolates circuits that will be powered by inverter when other circuits do not have power

for safety things have to wired where there is absolutely no possibly of two power sources being connected to the same circuit
a sub-panel with mechanical interlock allowing only ONE choice, either/or is the safetest way of doing this

an ats choosing between two sources ( the oem breaker panel and the inverter ) can be used, as long as there is a CB between the output and the circuit

i have an ats on my fridge circuit, so it switches to a circuit from the breaker panel when the generator comes on

wiring can get confusing
and sometimes, its not clear what somebody is trying to describe


Posted By: glamisduner on 12/10/15 02:11am

MrWizard wrote:

glamisduner wrote:

smkettner wrote:

Transfer switch will not be able to backfeed the main panel.
You need a subpanel to break out the inverter items.


I don't understand, I don't want it to backfeed the main panel, that's the whole idea of not feeding the main panel with the ats. I just want to run one dual breaker off the ats output. Do I really need a whole subpanel for one breaker?


a box with one or two circuit breakers
can be a sub panel or a switch box, depending on how its wired
coming from the ats to a dedicated circuit Not powered by anything else
it is both a switch box and protected circuit at the same time

a sub-panel in RV context with a generator, shore, and inverter
is s selection of one or more circuts that can be powered by shore/gnerater switched by main ats,
and also powered by just the inverter
in other words that panel has multiple possible power sources
it isolates circuits that will be powered by inverter when other circuits do not have power

for safety things have to wired where there is absolutely no possibly of two power sources being connected to the same circuit
a sub-panel with mechanical interlock allowing only ONE choice, either/or is the safetest way of doing this

an ats choosing between two sources ( the oem breaker panel and the inverter ) can be used, as long as there is a CB between the output and the circuit

i have an ats on my fridge circuit, so it switches to a circuit from the breaker panel when the generator comes on

wiring can get confusing
and sometimes, its not clear what somebody is trying to describe


Indeed it can get confusing. I think you are not understanding my diagram, so it's probably my bad.

I want to isolate the 15/15 dual breaker. So although it is drawn on the main panel (it's current location) I want to isolate this breaker such that it's power source is only the output from the ATS. Thus it can only be powered by one source at a time. It would be nice if I could leave it mounted in it's current location (but separated from the main panel) for accessibility purposes.

If I have to add a sub-panel I won't have easy access to it and it will require tools to get at. That's why I really just want to wire up a 15amp/15amp single breaker without the need for an entire sub panel (or are you saying it would be considered a sub panel anyways?).

The only breaker I need to power using my inverter (and ATS) is for the outlets, and all outlets are on the existing 15/15 breaker.

If your saying what I want is not possible, I'll just run one of the 15 amp breaker outputs circuits to the ATS, Inverter to ATS, and inverter output to what used to be connected to the 15A breaker. But then only 1/2 my outlets will get inverter power.

I would prefer to run output from the main breaker into the ATS, inverter into ATS, and have the output going into a single 15/15 breaker's input though. This would give all my outlets in the trailer inverter power or shore power, and I would not have to remember to flip breakers when starting the generator to charge the battery etc since only the outlets would be wired to the ATS.

So in the end I the question is: Can I power a breaker without a panel or sub panel? Do they make a single 15/15 amp breaker that take in a wired input instead of needing to be attached to a panel?

smkettner wrote:

If the generator is running and someone turns on the inverter they will both feed the same bus and the smoke comes out of one or both.

Yes you could switch some breakers manually but then why bother with the ATS.

If you just need one branch circuit then it could come right off the ATS.
Might get by with two circuits off the ATS depending on loads.

Have you mapped all five circuits?

-------

As for wire I would just use the max that the terminals are rated. I recommend battery cable over speaker wire.

I get my provisions here: http://www.genuinedealz.com/marine-wire/marine-battery-cable

Best value is to have them put the correct battery lug on one end and sealed with heat shrink.


Please read the above. There would only be one power source to the 15/15 breaker at a time. I want a 15/15 breaker (Like I have now) to be powered by ATS output, instead of by the main panel.

I'm not using speaker wire I'm using amplifier wire. Here is a direct link
http://www.knukonceptz.com/mobile-audio/power-wire/kolossus-fleks-kable/sp/kolossus-fleks-kable-4-gauge-black-powerground-wire/

Yes I have mapped all 5 circuits [emoticon]


Posted By: MrWizard on 12/10/15 09:01am

Not possible...to isolate that breaker from the panel
You can remove those two wires hots and neutrals
And connect then to the output of an ats
Run new wires from the breakers to one of the ats inputs
And wires from the inverter to the other ats input
Since you have two circuits you really do need a breaker box between the ats output and the two circuits/breakers

Those breakers are physically and electrically connected to the hot buss of the panel, can't be electrically isolated while physically plugged into the panel
Your drawing is a mess, as far as electrical design
You need to redo it using the info you have been given here

Switch only the a/c do not switch inverter dc our converter dc
You cannot feed those breakers from the inverter, it's not possible
You have to use them to feed one input of the ats take the ats output to the actual circuit wires


Posted By: time2roll on 12/10/15 09:07am

So you are going to cut the hot bus bar in the panel?


Posted By: glamisduner on 12/10/15 11:24am

smkettner wrote:

So you are going to cut the hot bus bar in the panel?


I was thinking about it. Otherwise it will require tools to get to a seperate breaker.

A separate breaker box is sounding like the only alternative though. Where can I find one? What term do I need to google?

Too bad I can't just mount a new breaker into the ats box, there's plenty of room in there.

Alternarivly I guess I could also put all of the outlets behind one breaker right? It just would limit all the outlets to 15 amps instead of a combined 30, although a combined 30 would trip the main anyways.

I might just do that instead. at least it wood not require tools to get to the beaker if I trip it.


Posted By: time2roll on 12/10/15 11:51am

I ended up with two transfer switches to avoid the subpanel that would be hard to access.
If your loads are light you could just attach both to the one TS direct.


Posted By: glamisduner on 12/10/15 01:55pm

smkettner wrote:

I ended up with two transfer switches to avoid the subpanel that would be hard to access.
If your loads are light you could just attach both to the one TS direct.


That would work too, but I don't have the space, I could install the other switch elsewhere I guess though, it would just involve snaking some wires under the trailer.


Posted By: time2roll on 12/10/15 05:00pm

I crammed two relays in one box. If doing this today I would have the smaller TS by KISAE.

http://www.donrowe.com/KISAE-TS15A-Automatic-Transfer-Switch-p/ts15a.htm


Posted By: glamisduner on 12/19/15 05:32pm

smkettner wrote:

I crammed two relays in one box. If doing this today I would have the smaller TS by KISAE.

http://www.donrowe.com/KISAE-TS15A-Automatic-Transfer-Switch-p/ts15a.htm


Looks nice I guess if I have to buy another one I will get one of those. For now I'm just going to run all of the outlets off a single 15 amp breaker. The Hot wire from the output side of thbe breaker is wired into the ATS.

Anyways I got everything hooked up and I'm still having some issues. I found every time I plugged in shore power (from the house) my GFCI would trip on the outlet it was plugged into.

As it is now, I have the ground buss in the ATS connected to the ground buss in the Main panel (via the ground wire in the romex). I found removing the ground wire coming out of the inverter plug solved the problem with tripping the house gfci.

I also have all the neutrals connected together. So when when the inverter is on and the ATS is running off inverter power, but the rest of the trailer is running on shore/generator power (I have the breaker turned off that powers the ATS), then the neutral would be shared for the inverter and shore power since they end up connected together. Is this a problem? I'm thinking this is what is actually causing the issue, maybe isolating the neutrals would solve the problem and allow me to plug back in the ground wire? I'm thinking the issue is due to the inverter potentially tying neutral to ground internally?


Also, I have not grounded the inverter to the trailer via the extra ground terminal.

* This post was last edited 12/19/15 06:05pm by glamisduner *


Posted By: MrWizard on 12/19/15 09:39pm

yes common nuetral is a problem, and wired against code

you have too switch both HOT and Neutral, with the ATS for ALL power sources

that means switch both wires from generator, both wires from shore power

AND both hot and neutral from inverter

its the law , because its a Safety issue


Posted By: glamisduner on 12/23/15 01:12pm

MrWizard wrote:

yes common nuetral is a problem, and wired against code

you have too switch both HOT and Neutral, with the ATS for ALL power sources

that means switch both wires from generator, both wires from shore power

AND both hot and neutral from inverter

its the law , because its a Safety issue


I thought that might have been the problem. Isolated the neutral and everything is working as it should! Taking it out next week!

Thanks for everyone's help. I might add a second ATS later (one of those small ones) if I end up with too much load on all the outlets.


Posted By: jsikora on 12/26/15 03:56pm

An idea i did in my 5th wheel was I just removed the black wire from the breaker and ran it thru a standard light switch then back to the breaker. When running on inverter I just shut the switch off. The only issue i ever had was forgetting to turn it on ! I had planned to change the switch to a lighted one so i knew it was on, but since replaced the camper...well moved out of it so to speak.

Installed my ATS just after the twist lock in the side of the camper. This allowed all circuits to be live. I was worried about the microwave and coffee maker but my inverter has a shutdown for over current so if she accidentally thinks she can use it it shuts down.


1998 Fleetwood Bounder 30
FORE SALE - 2006 Fleetwood Wilderness 5th Wheel
SOLD - 2010 F-350 PSD Lariet CC 4X4
2000 Jayco Pop Up...The Guest House



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