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Open Roads Forum  >  Tow Vehicles

 > Timbren/Axle Clearance for Empty '16 Ram 3500 SRW

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Cummins12V98

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Posted: 01/11/19 11:21am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

otrfun wrote:

Cummins12V98 wrote:

" Ram 3500 SRW with 4k of payload---zero concerns" PAYLOAD is not JUST on the rear axle.

BOTTOM line if you care what RAM cares about is what weight is on EACH axle. The GVWR is JUST a number for licensing/insurance purposes. Be at or under your axle weights and "IF" you end ups over your GVWR simply add tonnage to cover.

Load that sucker up with it actually how you are going to use then take it to the scales. Post a pic of weights with your door sticker, THAT will tell the TRUE story.
You're dissecting this one post, out of context. You failed to acknowledge my previous posts with Me Again where I referenced the camper's COG, and how dynamic it can be. Bottom line, the rig's overall COG determines the distribution of front and rear axle weights.


Not sure the issue here, just stating info many simply don't understand. ACTUAL axle weight is where it's at!


2015 RAM LongHorn 3500 Dually CrewCab 4X4 CUMMINS/AISIN RearAir 385HP/865TQ 4:10's
37,800# GCVWR "Towing Beast"

"HeavyWeight" B&W RVK3600

2016 MobileSuites 39TKSB3 highly "Elited" In the stable

2007.5 Mobile Suites 36 SB3 29,000# Combined SOLD

otrfun

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Posted: 01/11/19 12:18pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Cummins12V98 wrote:

otrfun wrote:

Cummins12V98 wrote:

" Ram 3500 SRW with 4k of payload---zero concerns" PAYLOAD is not JUST on the rear axle.

BOTTOM line if you care what RAM cares about is what weight is on EACH axle. The GVWR is JUST a number for licensing/insurance purposes. Be at or under your axle weights and "IF" you end ups over your GVWR simply add tonnage to cover.

Load that sucker up with it actually how you are going to use then take it to the scales. Post a pic of weights with your door sticker, THAT will tell the TRUE story.
You're dissecting this one post, out of context. You failed to acknowledge my previous posts with Me Again where I referenced the camper's COG, and how dynamic it can be. Bottom line, the rig's overall COG determines the distribution of front and rear axle weights.
Not sure the issue here, just stating info many simply don't understand. ACTUAL axle weight is where it's at!
The issue here? You seem to not understand that I understand--lol!

I clearly elaborated on my understanding of the importance of front and rear axle weights when I discussed COG---how it's important to distribute weight properly in the camper to in order to not exceed either the FAWR or RAWR (and the GVWR in terms of payload).

As for ACTUAL axle weights, it's a given that no one ever knows their exact weights before they hitch up (or loadup a camper). Not to mention it's also an extremely dynamic number---move one item in your rig and all the numbers change. In any case, more to the point. The vast majority of folks do not have the opportunity to scale their rig before purchase. However, there is a process called due diligence that comes into play to address this issue.

I’ve purchased a number of TT’s and 5th wheels. I do a LOT of homework before I purchase. I never purchase anything without some kind of indirect or direct verification of trailer/camper, pin, and/or tongue weight based on a scale weight from a reputable source. I never rely on hearsay or factory specs. Ideally, it'll be a direct verification, but sometimes you have to settle for indirect. I've discovered advertised empty weights for campers (especially those from Artic Fox) are notoriously inaccurate. Sometimes they're low-balled as much as 1,000 lbs. I was very fortunate to have a friend of mine get the scale numbers for an empty camper exactly like the one I’m purchasing (with the same options). We got both axle weights (i.e., COG) with both the truck empty and with the camper on the truck. Interestingly, the scaled weight was within 50 lbs. of the factory's scaled weight (for that specific unit) when it left the factory. Northern Lite has excellent reputation for accurate empty weights.

Bottom line, I'm confident I've practiced my proper due diligence in my choice of camper. I'm also very confident my ACTUAL axle weights (loaded) will be easily under my FAWR, RAWR, and GVWR . . . and yes, all at the same time---lol!!

* This post was edited 01/11/19 12:24pm by otrfun *

Frostbitte

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Posted: 01/11/19 01:12pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

I didn't use the spacers either. Works great unloaded. When loaded, they work great too. Good compromise. I'd probably only recommend putting the spacer in only if you ride with back loaded. Say, lots of tools or a camper.


2011 RAM 3500 Laramie 4x4 6.7 Cummins 6-speed Auto 4.10
2004 Prowler 275 CKS (Sold)
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Cummins12V98

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Posted: 01/11/19 03:52pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Get over it I was making a general statement.

otrfun

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Posted: 01/14/19 06:19pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Installed the timbrens using 1/2” spacers I ordered from etrailer. Gave me about 1/2” - 5/8” of timbren/axle clearance. Timbren recommends 1/2” - 1 1/2”. It rides a bit rougher over nasty railroad tracks, but otherwise not too bad. Pretty confident these are going to work out well with the new camper [emoticon]

RoyJ

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Posted: 01/15/19 11:01pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

otrfun wrote:

The issue here? You seem to not understand that I understand--lol!

I clearly elaborated on my understanding of the importance of front and rear axle weights when I discussed COG---how it's important to distribute weight properly in the camper to in order to not exceed either the FAWR or RAWR (and the GVWR in terms of payload).

..................

Bottom line, I'm confident I've practiced my proper due diligence in my choice of camper. I'm also very confident my ACTUAL axle weights (loaded) will be easily under my FAWR, RAWR, and GVWR . . . and yes, all at the same time---lol!!


You make some very good points, and have done more research than many people on the relationships of GAWR/GVW. However, if you read what 12V98 wrote again I don't think he was disagreeing with you.

He simply pointed out that The GVWR is often artificially restricted to less than the sum of front+rear GAWRs. So in a way, you can safety exceed your "payload" / GVW, as long as your axle weight are in check (which it is).

That's one thing I find annoying in the non-commercial world. With heavy trucks, GVW is almost always sum of all GAWRs (up to the federal / State limit). You'd never see a Kenworth with 12k front axle, 40k rear tandem, and some arbitrary 49,500 lbs GVWR.

I always tell people GAWR is a true engineering spec, as it encompasses suspension, braking, axle bearing, and tire loading. GVWR is marketing / legal driven. If you don't exceed your GAWRs, then you can safely exceed GVWR. No I'm not a lawyer, but as an engineer, I'd happily act as the expert witness in court, if someone ever got sued for being over GVW but under GAWR (not aware of one).

Cummins12V98

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Posted: 01/16/19 04:32am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

"You make some very good points, and have done more research than many people on the relationships of GAWR/GVW. However, if you read what 12V98 wrote again I don't think he was disagreeing with you."


THANK YOU!!!

otrfun

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Posted: 01/16/19 06:20pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

RoyJ wrote:

You make some very good points, and have done more research than many people on the relationships of GAWR/GVW. However, if you read what 12V98 wrote again I don't think he was disagreeing with you.
It's possible you may be more in tune with his posting style and saw his perspective more clearly. I don't post on rv.net all that regularly, so I took his posts at face value.
RoyJ wrote:

He simply pointed out that The GVWR is often artificially restricted to less than the sum of front + rear GAWRs. So in a way, you can safety exceed your "payload" or GVW, as long as your axle weight are in check (which it is).

That's one thing I find annoying in the non-commercial world. With heavy trucks, GVW is almost always sum of all GAWRs (up to the federal / State limit). You'd never see a Kenworth with 12k front axle, 40k rear tandem, and some arbitrary 49,500 lbs GVWR.

I always tell people GAWR is a true engineering spec, as it encompasses suspension, braking, axle bearing, and tire loading. GVWR is marketing / legal driven. If you don't exceed your GAWRs, then you can safely exceed GVWR. No I'm not a lawyer, but as an engineer, I'd happily act as the expert witness in court, if someone ever got sued for being over GVW but under GAWR (not aware of one).
Appreciate your explanation. I was already well aware that the sum total of the FAWR and RAWR exceeds the GVWR on many trucks (and cars, for that matter). As many of us know, this is especially true for many late-model, 3/4-ton diesel trucks. Many are "administratively" limited to a 10k GVWR for registration purposes (and have a very low payload rating as a result)---even though the axle ratings are very similar to their 1-ton SRW stablemate. Easy to understand why some may choose to ignore the payload or GVWR and focus on the FAWR and RAWR.

However, (as you suggested) if one chooses to ignore the payload/GVWR on any truck, they may open themselves up to the possibility they may have to call an expert witness, such as yourself to, hopefully, convince the court the GVWR is indeed, just a marketing gimmick---a paper tiger.

For my peace-of mind (and with all due respect for your engineering expertise), I chose to pay the higher registration fees and purchased a 1-ton SRW (vs. a 3/4-ton) so I can stay within all the truck's ratings. No expert witness necessary.

Cummins12V98

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Posted: 01/16/19 08:06pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Otrfun

Please explain how I can load to my SAE RAWR 9,750# and not add a single pound to my 5,300# front axle weight and NOT be over my 14k GVWR.

otrfun

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Posted: 01/16/19 10:01pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Cummins12V98 wrote:

Otrfun

Please explain how I can load to my SAE RAWR 9,750# and not add a single pound to my 5,300# front axle weight and NOT be over my 14k GVWR.
To answer your question succinctly, one can either abide by all the maximum weight ratings for their truck, or not. It's a choice we all get to make.

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