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Open Roads Forum  >  Beginning RVing

 > Moving up to a Ram 2500.. but have some weight questions..

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rhagfo

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Posted: 05/02/19 07:50pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Grit dog wrote:

"The cost difference is minimal between similarly equipped 3/4-ton and 1-ton trucks. Look for a SRW 1-ton with the most payload you can get. All the calculations in the world can't justify scrimping on safety when it comes to your family and others on the road."

Except from a safety standpoint, a 3/4 and a 1 ton srw ARE the same trucks (yes, RAM has rear coils on the 2500 now and yes you could get a 3500 RAM with more power and a different trans).
BUT from a safety standpoint apples to apples, there is no additional "safety" to be gained in a 1 ton srw. Other than a 3/4 ton may need some supplemental rear suspension as the springs are typically softer. But even in that case, the "safety" aspect is lie with the owner to recognize a and possibly rectify an obvious and easily remedied condition.


Well NOT ALWAYS the SAME, there can be differences in tires, sizes and capacities, NOT always but it needs watching.
Now days manufactures are starting to make the difference between the two, engines with less HP and torque, less robust transmissions.

Back in the day, the differences were less, but still there.

Even when I was towing with the 2001 Ram 2500 well over GVWR, I would strongly encourage those that haven't bought their TV to get a minimum a 3500 SRW. The 5er you listed has a low weight, but even at that with kids and DW and STUFF you will likely exceed the 10,000# GVWR. No the truck will not fall apart, but it is the legal aspect of exceeding that magic number. Way too many Hungary lawyers out there now to gamble for me.
I took it one step further, we bought a 2016 Ram 3500 DRW, currently no issue with payload. The hips, well you get use to them and they become less of an issue.

Personally if I were you I would be looking for a 3500.


Russ & Paula the Beagle Belle.
2016 Ram Laramie 3500 Aisin DRW 4X4 Long bed.
2005 Copper Canyon 293 FWSLS, 32' GVWR 12,360#

"Visit and Enjoy Oregon State Parks"


2012Coleman

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Posted: 05/03/19 04:50am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

OP wrote:

We don't want a dually, and we have a family of five. We're looking at a 2500 Crew Cab.


So just for grins and giggles, redo your calculations using a SRW (single Rear Wheel) 3500.

Just remember - posts on this and other forums you read are people's opinions - take them as such.


Experience without good judgment is worthless; good judgment without experience is still good judgment!

2018 RAM 3500 Big Horn CTD
2018 Grand Design Reflection 303RLS

Walaby

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Posted: 05/03/19 05:32am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

audiodane wrote:

Hello again,
  • Question: Is the mfgr being misleading, or is this RV "designed" to be pulled with a 15% kingpin hitch ratio?


  • Question: Why do the combined axle ratings so often *exceed* the tow vehicle's gvw?


  • Question: Before I purchase the truck, how do I reconcile these two vastly different outcomes?



..dane


My input, 1 by 1.

1. No, mfgr is not being misleading. They are telling you the specific weight information, for the RV, in an unloaded capacity. They have no insight into how the thousands of us will load it. Depending on the configuration, alot of weight can end up on pin after loaded. How are they to predict how you will load your trailer?

2. Because there are more factors than JUST axle weight rating when determining payload. Simple fact is, the 3/4 ton trucks are artificially capped at 10K for taxes and licensing purposes. There are differences, as pointed out, in suspension (coil vs leaf) and probably a few other parts. But for most part, they use the same parts for both classes of vehicles (except DRWs of course).

3. It is totally up to you, and the value you put on the different weight ratings. That is why this argument ALWAYS, repeat ALWAYS ends up in disagreement. And why you will never get a unanimous opinion (note, I said opinion). Even with my 1 ton, my weights, with truck loaded to go, RV loaded to go, I am 20 lbs OVER my payload, but 300lbs UNDER my axle weight rating. My hitch weighs 300lbs by itself. Im probably running 23-24% pin weight, because I've got a full basement of "stuff" and most of that ends up on the pin. I added a different mattress that weighs probably 50 lbs more than the mattress that came with the unit. That's all pin weight. So, it adds up quickly. Am I worried about it? No...

For 5er's, I am more focused on pin weight and the rear GAWR. Less concerned about payload. I am with the others who say, if you plan to tow a 5er, and planning to buy an SRW truck, just go with 1 ton and be done. I am a two timer (had a 2500, then bought a 3500). Fortunately for me, my 2500 Ram Cummins Diesel I basically broke even selling ($1500 less than I paid after 2 years) and I got a screaming deal on a new 2017 (in late 2018), with only 26 miles.

FWIW.

Mike


Im Mike Willoughby, and I approve this message.
2017 Ram 3500 CTD (aka FRAM)
2019 GrandDesign Reflection 367BHS


Walaby

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Posted: 05/03/19 05:34am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Delete-duplicate

audiodane

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Posted: 05/03/19 11:22am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Grit dog wrote:

...
BUT from a safety standpoint apples to apples, there is no additional "safety" to be gained in a 1 ton srw. Other than a 3/4 ton may need some supplemental rear suspension as the springs are typically softer. But even in that case, the "safety" aspect is lie with the owner to recognize a and possibly rectify an obvious and easily remedied condition.


Thanks grit-- and this (rear suspension) can be accomplished with air bags or other things as needed, as I understand it.. ?

Grit dog wrote:


Lol, not sure I am either, but rest assured, this conversation will most likely end up the same.
As an engineer, you would look at the individual components and see if the sum of those components is the same for 2 different "things".
...
Typical class 2 trucks (8 lug 3/4 ton trucks, please some try hard, don't bring up the old 7 lug Fords and 1500HD GMs) are the same truck as the Class 3 single wheel counterparts, but they are intentionally de-rated to fit within this weight class.
You can do a he said/she said argument about why, but practical application is it allows companies to have HD pickups without having to maintain DOT driver files. It allows HD pickups to run on "no commercial traffic" highways in states that have those restrictions. It allows Joe blow to own a HD pickup and park it in his overly covenanted cookie cutter subdivision without the HOA "cops" hassling him.
...
BUT the most important part is the first part. Same axles, same brakes, same frame, same wheels, same drivetrain, same, same, same = its not unsafe to do "1 ton" duties with a 3/4 ton.


Thanks here too, grit-- this aligns with other things I have read (re: class delineation). esp. when you look at ShinerBlock's truck specs this comes out- the 2500SRW and 3500SRW are nearly identical. Which is what I couldn't square-up.. This discussion has helped me greatly. I have also gone back and read more threads on this forum (as recently as last month) and I have learned more re-reading them in light of discussion here. I admit reading them the first time around I missed some of the nuances.

rhagfo wrote:

Grit dog wrote:

Except from a safety standpoint, a 3/4 and a 1 ton srw ARE the same trucks


Well NOT ALWAYS the SAME, there can be differences in tires, sizes and capacities, NOT always but it needs watching.
...
Way too many Hungary lawyers out there now to gamble for me.
I took it one step further, we bought a 2016 Ram 3500 DRW, currently no issue with payload. The hips, well you get use to them and they become less of an issue.

Personally if I were you I would be looking for a 3500.


thanks rhagfo-- I appreciate your input. I agree that the newer trucks are more capable than the older trucks. And I can totally appreciate the payload limits for the average customer who doesn't want to do all the math, or consider the tire ratings.

I tend towards wanting to understand the math of why and how a certain value was reached, and the payload limit never squared with all the rest of the math, thus my questions..

Even if we can't all fully agree, I am MUCH more aware (now) of things like tire ratings, thanks to this and other threads like it. And for that I am very grateful!

Walaby wrote:

audiodane wrote:


  • Question: Is the mfgr being misleading, or is this RV "designed" to be pulled with a 15% kingpin hitch ratio?
  • Question: Why do the combined axle ratings so often *exceed* the tow vehicle's gvw?
  • Question: Before I purchase the truck, how do I reconcile these two vastly different outcomes?


My input, 1 by 1.

1. No, mfgr is not being misleading. They are telling you the specific weight information, for the RV, in an unloaded capacity. They have no insight into how the thousands of us will load it. Depending on the configuration, alot of weight can end up on pin after loaded. How are they to predict how you will load your trailer?

2. Because there are more factors than JUST axle weight rating when determining payload. Simple fact is, the 3/4 ton trucks are artificially capped at 10K for taxes and licensing purposes. There are differences, as pointed out, in suspension (coil vs leaf) and probably a few other parts. But for most part, they use the same parts for both classes of vehicles (except DRWs of course).

3. It is totally up to you, and the value you put on the different weight ratings. That is why this argument ALWAYS, repeat ALWAYS ends up in disagreement. And why you will never get a unanimous opinion (note, I said opinion). Even with my 1 ton, my weights, with truck loaded to go, RV loaded to go, I am 20 lbs OVER my payload, but 300lbs UNDER my axle weight rating. My hitch weighs 300lbs by itself. Im probably running 23-24% pin weight, because I've got a full basement of "stuff" and most of that ends up on the pin. I added a different mattress that weighs probably 50 lbs more than the mattress that came with the unit. That's all pin weight. So, it adds up quickly. Am I worried about it? No...

For 5er's, I am more focused on pin weight and the rear GAWR. Less concerned about payload. I am with the others who say, if you plan to tow a 5er, and planning to buy an SRW truck, just go with 1 ton and be done. I am a two timer (had a 2500, then bought a 3500). Fortunately for me, my 2500 Ram Cummins Diesel I basically broke even selling ($1500 less than I paid after 2 years) and I got a screaming deal on a new 2017 (in late 2018), with only 26 miles.


Thanks so much mike-

1) yes, but I guess my parallel question is, if they are rating 15% based upon UVW, does that mean it's designed to be 15%, period.. IOW, if you loaded 2K into it, then it would be 15% of the new weight. Or, are they saying 15% UVW simply to give artificially low numbers in order to make them look better against their competitors, even though "everyone knows" (read: everyone has an opinion!) you should really target 20% or more. Even the Ram Truck folks can't seem to make up their mind. a 2010 job rating worksheet listed kingpin at 25%. Their 2016 revision drops that to 15%. And this (seems to be) ram's own recommended job-rating worksheet!

2) Seems to be the prevailing answer in my research...

3) Thanks for your feedback and experience.. I'm at least able to better understand WHY people have different perspectives now. Previously I just knew nobody seemed to agree. I'm becoming more comfortable with my understanding of the issues, the math, and the class delineation. The extremely specific example in the OP has seemed to help people give more objective and less subjective answers (or at least clarify what is opinion vs not), which has all been very helpful!

cheers,
..dane


2018 Ram 3500 CC SB 4x4 SRW

audiodane

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Posted: 05/03/19 11:48am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

2012Coleman wrote:

OP wrote:

We don't want a dually, and we have a family of five. We're looking at a 2500 Crew Cab.


So just for grins and giggles, redo your calculations using a SRW (single Rear Wheel) 3500.

Just remember - posts on this and other forums you read are people's opinions - take them as such.


Oooo, good idea 2012Coleman. Thanks. I'll do that here...

same calculations using 3500

gcwr is (still) totally fine: 3500 tv curb weight (7,918) + rv gvwr (10,995) = 19,813.... stillWAY under the 3500's gcwr of 25,000; Also, rv gvwr (10,995) is also way under 3500's max tow capacity (16,910).

family+in-cab stuffs: 600lb for axle calculations, or 450lb (600-150) for payload calculations (b/c http://www.rambodybuilder.com specifically says the 2014 Ram 3500 payload number includes a 150lb driver)

5th wheel hitch: ~150lb

using payload method: 4,380 - 450 - 150 = 3780lb
using combined axle rating method: 5,080 - 600 - 150 = 4330lb

** certainly works with both calculations; but, as mentioned elsewhere, it depends on if you believe the payload limits are due to "towing class" delineation for sales and model differentiation, or due to some other inherent limitation of the vehicle from a safety and/or capability perspective (which still falls back to safety, I suppose).

The numbers above are much closer, and much more "in agreement" with each other. which would seem to tell me that payload and axle ratings here are more 'real.' WIth the 2500 version of the same vehicle, something is "off." Either it's the payload, or it's the axle ratings.

All other things being equal, if they artificially raised the axle ratings (but payload is "real"), they're hurting for a lawsuit. If they artificially lowered the payload rating (but axle rating is "real"), then they're only hurting sales of that vehicle --> unless they have another vehicle to fill the "heavier than heavy-duty" gap between the limit they (artificially) set and the actual limits imposed by the ("real") axle ratings. In my mind, that's what it seems to come down to.

It's easier to believe the latter (limitation for "class" differentiation) than the former.

cheers,
..dane

audiodane

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Posted: 05/03/19 12:12pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

I will also add that I realized after recaluclating using the 3500's numbers, I was doing "combined axle rating." So I wanted to go back and do only REAR axle rating calculation.

Assumptions

- Mostly the same as before; except I'm going to split the family 50/50 between the front and rear axles.. it's probably a good enough approximation.

- family+in-cab stuffs: 300lbs for rear axle calculations (splitting 600lbs of family+snacks between two axles), or 225lbs ((600-150)/2) for payload calculations

- I couldn't find the exact same vehicle used here but a close approximation is a 2014, 2500 CrewCab, Short Box, 4x4, Laramie... 2180 payload, 7818 curb weight, 6000f/6500r axle ratings, 17,010 trailer max. So we'll go with that.

5th wheel hitch ~150lb

payload method: 2,180 - 225 - 150 = 1,805lb
REAR axle method: rawr (6,500) - rear base weight (2,969) - 225 - 150 = 3,156

** This method actually brings them closer together somewhat .. available 'payload' increases by 300lb and available rear axle rating decreases by ~800lb. And probably a much better approximation anyway because the 5th wheel is going to be MOSTLY on the rear axle.

So in these equations, kingpin weight limit yields between 16% rv gvwr to 20% rv uvw using the remaining 'payload' numbers, and again easily handles the full 25% rv gwvr (2,750lb) with 400lb to spare. backing off to 22.5% (2,475) increases the safety margin from 400lb to over 650lbs.

..dane

2012Coleman

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Posted: 05/03/19 01:29pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Just remember that the CTD engine is a lot heaver that the 6.4/5.7 Hemi. Payload on my previous 2017 RAM with the 6.4 Hemi was 3020. My current TV is 3739. I tow a 12K gross fifth wheel, and honestly, it tows a lot better with the 3500 - ya the diesel is a big part of that.

Check around, the 3500 is not much of a jump in price and you should be able to get a god deal on a 2018.

The other plus with mine is that I can easily upgrade to the next bigger fifth wheel in the GD Reflection series which may be the plan after retirement and it will only be the two of us.

I'm not in the camp that looks at axle ratings, although I have seen some 3/4 ton trucks pulling way bigger rigs than mine. Maybe it's true about manufacturers deflating the ratings - but the only info you can get on that is on a RV forum. Not saying I want to argue about it.

Another thing - published numbers are all over the place. Your best bet is to buy the truck you want, and then take it to a Cat scale and get it weighed - google Cat scale locator.

Good luck.

audiodane

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Posted: 05/03/19 01:42pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

solid advice, 2012Coleman. Thank you. We did the CAT scale thing with our 2014 Expedition EL and towed a few times (TT's) ... looking for a little more margin but a 3500 just seems unnecessarily large. I think a <12k gross FW gives us plenty of options..

Not absolutely opposed to a 3500, but also don't think it's a must in this (<12k gross) ballpark based on what I'm learning.. Definitely going CTD engine though, whichever way we go. [emoticon] Lots of good 10k and 11k gross options out there..

cheers,
..dane

2012Coleman

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Posted: 05/03/19 04:15pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

LOL, I thought that the 3500 was overkill at first as well. It’s the same truck actually - just more capacity. It’s not any taller. I checked since i had the 2500 first. Lots of people tried scaring me away from the 1 ton told me I didn’t need it. One person even bounced on my bumper in since he couldn’t move the truck said I had plenty of capacity. I’m much happier with It then I think I would have been with a 2500 with the diesel.

Make sure you come back and tell us about the decision.

I think your right though at less than 12 k your good with the 2500 but it’s nice to have the extra and not have to worry for the next camper

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