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Open Roads Forum  >  Tow Vehicles

 > Why 4.1 axle?

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time2roll

Southern California

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Posted: 06/18/19 09:23am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

With more overdrive that is all the MORE reason to have 4.10
Gear 6 and 9 is virtually the same. So the gear 10 allows for lower rpm with the 4.10 ratio.
3.xx is grocery gears. 4.xx is towing gears.

The only reason I say 4.10 is that most would call 4.56 or 4.88 absolute bonkers. Anything 4.xx is reasonable with those overdrive ratios.

If you want to run 3.20 gears... that is fine with me also.


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mich800

Pontiac, MI

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Posted: 06/18/19 09:41am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

time2roll wrote:

With more overdrive that is all the MORE reason to have 4.10
Gear 6 and 9 is virtually the same. So the gear 10 allows for lower rpm with the 4.10 ratio.
3.xx is grocery gears. 4.xx is towing gears.

The only reason I say 4.10 is that most would call 4.56 or 4.88 absolute bonkers. Anything 4.xx is reasonable with those overdrive ratios.

If you want to run 3.20 gears... that is fine with me also.


Than you defeat the purpose of the highway gearing unloaded. 1-5 are all deeper so you can get the same performance towing with a higher rear gear and extra economy when not. Remember, the reason for these transmissions is for cafe.

blt2ski

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Posted: 06/18/19 09:52am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

If said rig is a high enough gvwr to not meet cafe studs, all you drive is 60-65 mph, why not axial yourself to high gear to towing at max weight you will be. Allow to USD a deep low, assuming you pull grades steeper than 12% as current min tow rating specs are,and have a.better tow rig for MY application, not some person that thinks they know what I need. I rarely am in an area I can drive over 60 mph. And with in my state, if over 10,000 gvwr, max speed is 60 mph. Don't see a reason for a great that will allow me to cruise at 80 mph.
Marty


92 Navistar dump truck, 7.3L 7 sp, 4.33 gears with a Detroit no spin
00 Chev C2500, V5700, 4L80E, 4.10, base truck, no options!
92 Red-e-haul 12K equipment trailer

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mich800

Pontiac, MI

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Posted: 06/18/19 10:35am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

blt2ski wrote:

If said rig is a high enough gvwr to not meet cafe studs, all you drive is 60-65 mph, why not axial yourself to high gear to towing at max weight you will be. Allow to USD a deep low, assuming you pull grades steeper than 12% as current min tow rating specs are,and have a.better tow rig for MY application, not some person that thinks they know what I need. I rarely am in an area I can drive over 60 mph. And with in my state, if over 10,000 gvwr, max speed is 60 mph. Don't see a reason for a great that will allow me to cruise at 80 mph.
Marty


Half tons are included. And cafe are not measured towing trailers. I think we are staring to lose sight of the forest. I would love for the manufactures to build one off vehicles that met the spec for every individual driver. But that is not possible so the compromise of meeting government mandates and consumer wants occurs.

time2roll

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Posted: 06/18/19 10:42am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

mich800 wrote:

Half tons are included. And cafe are not measured towing trailers. I think we are staring to lose sight of the forest. I would love for the manufactures to build one off vehicles that met the spec for every individual driver. But that is not possible so the compromise of meeting government mandates and consumer wants occurs.
How hard is that to have optional gear ratios? Customer pays the extra cost.
Now if they would option a TrueTrac differential front and rear we would really be getting somewhere [emoticon]

BenK

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Posted: 06/18/19 12:37pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Gleason's are nice...wish the budget would allow...but...there are higher items on that list. A Detroit will suffice for now

Close ratio trannies were/are available, but in most cases...an adaptor & and "stuff" has always been nevessary. Have one built and ready for my 2 seater...5 speed w no OD manual to replace the stock 4 speed and no adapter needed

Marty is right, the 4L80E has a too low numeric (to high 1st gearing to tow heavy where there are steep inclines) and one reason ordered my K3500 with 4.1's

Won't spend the kinds of money on these new trucks and better spent, IMHO, on rebuilding to "my" specifications....turning my 4 speed with a single OD, into an 8 speed with double OD

1st will be lower than the 4L60E and with an approx 2.6 OD...haven't decided on the tire revs per mile yet. Probably sticking with what is on there...or LT255/85R16'

Personal choice...if you know HOW2 spec it out...or stuck with whatever the OEM of your choice provides

Too many only look at a component of the whole system...

Also...lost to them is the understanding of how gearboxes multiply torque

* This post was edited 06/18/19 12:46pm by BenK *


-Ben Picture of my rig
1996 GMC SLT Suburban 3/4 ton K3500/7.4L/4:1/+150Kmiles orig owner...
1980 Chevy Silverado C10/long bed/"BUILT" 5.7L/3:73/1 ton helper springs/+329Kmiles, bought it from dad...
1998 Mazda B2500 (1/2 ton) pickup, 2nd owner...
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Previous trucks/offroaders: 40's Jeep restored in mid 60's / 69 DuneBuggy (approx +1K lb: VW pan/200hpCorvair: eng, cam, dual carb'w velocity stacks'n 18" runners, 4spd transaxle) made myself from ground up / 1970 Toyota FJ40 / 1973 K5 Blazer (2dr Tahoe, 1 ton axles front/rear, +255K miles when sold it)...
Sold the boat (looking for another): Trophy with twin 150's...
51 cylinders in household, what's yours?...

time2roll

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Posted: 06/18/19 01:58pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

mich800 wrote:

time2roll wrote:

With more overdrive that is all the MORE reason to have 4.10
Gear 6 and 9 is virtually the same. So the gear 10 allows for lower rpm with the 4.10 ratio.
3.xx is grocery gears. 4.xx is towing gears.

The only reason I say 4.10 is that most would call 4.56 or 4.88 absolute bonkers. Anything 4.xx is reasonable with those overdrive ratios.

If you want to run 3.20 gears... that is fine with me also.


Than you defeat the purpose of the highway gearing unloaded. 1-5 are all deeper so you can get the same performance towing with a higher rear gear and extra economy when not. Remember, the reason for these transmissions is for cafe.
The thread is about "Why 4.1 axle?"
Not about efficiency, CAFE, running quietly at low rpm, defeating the OEM set up, or justifying 3.20 ratio etc.

mich800

Pontiac, MI

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Posted: 06/18/19 02:02pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

time2roll wrote:

mich800 wrote:

time2roll wrote:

With more overdrive that is all the MORE reason to have 4.10
Gear 6 and 9 is virtually the same. So the gear 10 allows for lower rpm with the 4.10 ratio.
3.xx is grocery gears. 4.xx is towing gears.

The only reason I say 4.10 is that most would call 4.56 or 4.88 absolute bonkers. Anything 4.xx is reasonable with those overdrive ratios.

If you want to run 3.20 gears... that is fine with me also.


Than you defeat the purpose of the highway gearing unloaded. 1-5 are all deeper so you can get the same performance towing with a higher rear gear and extra economy when not. Remember, the reason for these transmissions is for cafe.
The thread is about "Why 4.1 axle?"
Not about efficiency, CAFE, running quietly at low rpm, defeating the OEM set up, or justifying 3.20 ratio etc.


Fair enough. Why are we talking about the Ford 10 speed?

jaycocamprs

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Posted: 06/18/19 07:19pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

mich800 wrote:

time2roll wrote:

With more overdrive that is all the MORE reason to have 4.10
Gear 6 and 9 is virtually the same. So the gear 10 allows for lower rpm with the 4.10 ratio.
3.xx is grocery gears. 4.xx is towing gears.

The only reason I say 4.10 is that most would call 4.56 or 4.88 absolute bonkers. Anything 4.xx is reasonable with those overdrive ratios.

If you want to run 3.20 gears... that is fine with me also.


Than you defeat the purpose of the highway gearing unloaded. 1-5 are all deeper so you can get the same performance towing with a higher rear gear and extra economy when not. Remember, the reason for these transmissions is for cafe.

But the CAFE test doesn't really reflect the real world.
I did not by my truck to run high speed empty. I bought it to tow. If you run 60+ most of the time the high speed gear is fine. If however you rarely drive over 45 mph then the low gear will get you better city mileage. And I've yet to see more than 1 reverse gear. I've seen a lot of people that did not have a low enough reverse gearing. But I don't live in flat country either.


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valhalla360

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Posted: 06/19/19 06:16am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

JRscooby wrote:


Are we discussing why somebody would pick a given rear ratio, in this case 4.1 to 1, right? I don't have much experience with light duty stuff like what RVs use. What I have done is decide how much weight I need to move to make it pay, then try put the gears and axles under the frame to get the job done. If you got 50,000 lbs on your back, and the customer says "Take it across that bean field, dump at the tree line" You are going to grab a double handful of seat with both hands on the wheel. If you thought the 4.1s could save you fuel over the 4.44s you start counting how many gallons you could buy for the cost of the power divider. That old Pete with the 1693 Cat, 2 stick 5X4, and 5.56 was the best I ever had for that kind of work, but hard to feed on a lot of other jobs...


Again, if you need a higher tow rating yes a higher numerical rear end can help...I said that in my first post.

But most of the comments have been related to fuel efficiency and towing comfort (ie: it doesn't feel like the engine is struggling) but also presumes you are aren't exceeding the weight ratings for the truck.

If you aren't exceeding the weight ratings, a different rear end isn't going to have much of any impact with new trucks with 8/10 speed transmissions.


Tammy & Mike
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2008 Copper Canyon 5er
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