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 > Terrible factory splices in brake wiring

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myredracer

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Posted: 06/21/19 06:36pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

BillyBob Jim wrote:

Myred, have you ever pulled the cover and nosed around the inside of the 120 side of the converter box? How about pulling the sidewall mounted shore power connector if you have one and look at the connections, or poke around in the junction box at the connection if you have a power cord in a mousehole?

You may find lots of interesting things if you do so.

The RV Industry - What me worry?

Yup! Being the EE and the "can't leave it alone" person I am, there isn't much electrical I haven't touched, repaired or modified.

Why is it we're into our 6th season of owning this TT from new and I'm still finding bad workmanship that needs fixing?

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I hate CAPTCHA. It just will not go away...

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JRscooby

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Posted: 06/22/19 05:26am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Old-Biscuit wrote:


PIECE WORK......DOES NOT PROMOTE QUALITY WORK
NEVER has....NEVER will



Not sure that is the problem. Hourly pay, you can still get the "I don't give a snot" guy plus you get a large percentage that instead of looking at what might be a better way "So what? The're paying me head down." And if CQ catches a defect, the company pays for the hours to fix it.
IMHO, the problem is lack of inspection as it is built. The workers are paid for each job finished. If it was inspected, and found wrong, the worker does not get paid to do that job, or has to come back and fix it for free. Because each worker is wanting to make as much as he can he is always looking for a better way. And for the same reason he will be sure the product meets standards.
I thing the problem is people keep buying the trash, there is no reason to hire the inspectors. WE lay the money down, try to use it, take it back to the dealer. Then for the next period of time, days weeks or months the dealer has our trailer and part of the money, the manufacturer has rest of the money, you got squat.
Look at numbers; at any given time a busy dealer might have what 3 potential buyers on the lot? And at the same time, at least a dozen RVs waiting for warranty work? What would happen if say a third of the people that payed for squat stopped by[/] the dealer to check on the RV they don't have, then stepped into the sales area to report their "Joy of ownership?" At the very least it would get the sales force whipping service dept. And it would not take long before the dealers to realize "I can't really sell if I have all this warranty work," and he would refuse to accept the bad RVs.

* This post was edited 06/22/19 05:56am by JRscooby *

dodge guy

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Posted: 06/22/19 05:38am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

JRscooby wrote:

Old-Biscuit wrote:


PIECE WORK......DOES NOT PROMOTE QUALITY WORK
NEVER has....NEVER will



Not sure that is the problem. Hourly pay, you can still get the "I don't give a snot" guy plus you get a large percentage that instead of looking at what might be a better way "So what? The're paying me head down." And if CQ catches a defect, the company pays for the hours to fix it.
IMHO, the problem is lack of inspection as it is built. The workers are paid for each job finished. If it was inspected, and found wrong, the worker does not get paid to do that job, or has to come back and fix it for free. Because each worker is wanting to make as much as he can he is always looking for a better way. And for the same reason he will be sure the product meets standards.


That’s exactly it. I’m an auto tech and we work by booked hour. I take my time to make sure it’s done right. Take a extra minute and it doesn’t come back where you need to spend 30 minutes. And you have a happy customer.


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ppine

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Posted: 06/22/19 09:16am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

The industry does not pay enough to get craftsmen. They get hackers a lot of the time. It is like watching a service man from a satellite tv company. Most cut corners and are in a hurry.

Gdetrailer

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Posted: 06/22/19 09:44am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

JRscooby wrote:

Old-Biscuit wrote:


PIECE WORK......DOES NOT PROMOTE QUALITY WORK
NEVER has....NEVER will



#1 Not sure that is the problem. Hourly pay, you can still get the "I don't give a snot" guy plus you get a large percentage that instead of looking at what might be a better way "So what? The're paying me head down." And if CQ catches a defect, the company pays for the hours to fix it.


#2 IMHO, the problem is lack of inspection as it is built. The workers are paid for each job finished. If it was inspected, and found wrong, the worker does not get paid to do that job, or has to come back and fix it for free. Because each worker is wanting to make as much as he can he is always looking for a better way. And for the same reason he will be sure the product meets standards.


#3 I thing the problem is people keep buying the trash, there is no reason to hire the inspectors. WE lay the money down, try to use it, take it back to the dealer. Then for the next period of time, days weeks or months the dealer has our trailer and part of the money, the manufacturer has rest of the money, you got squat.


#4 Look at numbers; at any given time a busy dealer might have what 3 potential buyers on the lot? And at the same time, at least a dozen RVs waiting for warranty work? What would happen if say a third of the people that payed for squat stopped by[/] the dealer to check on the RV they don't have, then stepped into the sales area to report their "Joy of ownership?" At the very least it would get the sales force whipping service dept. And it would not take long before the dealers to realize "I can't really sell if I have all this warranty work," and he would refuse to accept the bad RVs.


First of all, in the RV industry, the workers are not paid "by the piece" so you cannot call it "piece work".

Piece work is when you get paid "PER PIECE". Back 35 yrs ago when I first started repairing electronic devices I worked for several different Mom and Pop repair shops.

I got paid "per piece". I got half of the labor charged per piece and nothing else. For example, a TV was estimated to the customer to take $20 in parts and $50 in labor, I got $25 out of that labor. It could take me 5 minutes or 5 days to complete the repairs and I got $25.

No hourly rate, no salary, if I didn't repair it I got nothing, if I did not show for work, I got nothing, if I showed up for work and there wasn't anything to repair I got nothing.

RV production floor workers are most likely paid an hourly wage.

Point number 1, you can get the "I don't care" attitude even with salaried or hourly, doesn't matter.

Sometimes the problem is the worker doing the work (not trained or not caring), sometimes the problem is bad management or high pressure from bad management to push stuff out the door before it is ready. Sometimes it is completely bad Engineering and Management turns a blind eye to it.

QC is often not the problem but depending on how QC is setup can make bad things worse.

Most RV manufacturers use moving production lines with specific work cells which do specific assembly at certain times in the assembly process.

Workers are often hurried to complete their part of the assy process before the entire unit is pushed past their work cell. Often with zero "QC" involvement in this final process of integration.

Workers may be fully trained in one work cell or all, partially trained or even no training other than watching someone show them once. I seriously doubt that there is any dedicated electricians, carpenters or any other specialized trades on the production line, it would cost several arms and legs to do so.

Mistakes can and will be made along the way and typically most manufacturers only do a % type QC, rather than 100% at the bitter end of the production line.

Point number 2, I guess you have never worked in any assembly plant or have setup a production floor. Depending on complexity of your device, having EACH assembled part in each section "inspected" by QC at each step of the way may or may not make sense..

A medical device which could kill a person if it malfunctioned, absolutely should have that kind of inspection.

A airplane that could fall out of the sky, absolutely should have that kind of inspection by QC.

A RV, nope, not worth the extra cost in man power, the worst you have there is a slight delay in your plans.

Not to mention absolutely no one would be willing to pay double of what a current RV costs..

Point number 3, go back to my comments on point number 2.

Point number 4, dealers wouldn't exist since RV manufacturers wouldn't exist since the prices of the RVs would be far more than what folks could afford to buy and due to zero sales putting a lot of workers out of a job from the workers making the materials that the RV manufacturers buy, the production workers building the RVs right through the RV dealers..

The use of the mass production line speeds up the building process, lowering the cost to make which lowers the final cost to the end user.

Mass production is not perfect, but often the mistakes made are much lower than say a "one off" that is hand built by just one skilled laborer..

Take your pick, have RVs of may many styles and floor plans built in a quick time and much lower cost (mass production) or one plan which takes months or even yrs to build at a cost well above your income level (hand built one off)..

The cheap wiring like the OP has is often a manufacturers cost cutting decision to find ways to use leftover scraps.

myredracer

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Posted: 06/22/19 11:18am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

dodge guy wrote:


That’s exactly it. I’m an auto tech and we work by booked hour. I take my time to make sure it’s done right. Take a extra minute and it doesn’t come back where you need to spend 30 minutes. And you have a happy customer.
I've heard of some experienced mechanics making really high incomes because they can do the work way faster than the book rates and they split the difference with the shop owner(s) over what they charge a customer.

Anyway, I've many people say they make junk RVs because buyers continue to buy junk. That is one thing I have to disagree with, especially with all the first time buyers out there. When you see a shiny new RV on the dealer's lot or at a show, you have no idea you can be buying a house of horrors. Some issues can't be spotted even if you looked for them. Heck, we even had an entire TT replaced under warranty due to a significant issue.

I would add that having an RVIA sticker on the outside means little or nothing. They can have all the standards and policies they want but the manufacturers get away with all sorts of substandard work. And there's no government authority that you can complain to and get action taken.

RVs are a whole world unto their own and I don't see anything changing. Sad!

JRscooby

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Posted: 06/22/19 01:31pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Gdetrailer wrote:


First of all, in the RV industry, the workers are not paid "by the piece" so you cannot call it "piece work".



First, I did not introduce the concept of piece work into the discussion. I think I know what piece work is. When hiring help, they knew they where paid a percentage of what the truck grossed. And like most business, I was paid for what the truck did. (Does the company get paid for canning the peas, or selling the peas?) And I have spent many a winter day sitting waiting for somebody to order a load.


Quote:

RV production floor workers are most likely paid an hourly wage.

Point number 1, you can get the "I don't care" attitude even with salaried or hourly, doesn't matter.



My point is if the workers are truly paid PW, the chance of that attitude is reduced, not increased

Quote:

Sometimes the problem is the worker doing the work (not trained or not caring), sometimes the problem is bad management or high pressure from bad management to push stuff out the door before it is ready. Sometimes it is completely bad Engineering and Management turns a blind eye to it.


Worker not trained or caring is also a problem with management. Look how many times that word shows up.

Quote:

Most RV manufacturers use moving production lines with specific work cells which do specific assembly at certain times in the assembly process.


And this is a new thing? Unique to the RV industry? The price of a model "T" constantly dropped as the line got more efficient. The T was a simple car, but not sure the average TT is any more complicated. And the better technology available for production, the on average more years in school of the work force (Not saying better educated) it should be no problem to mass produce a good product.


Quote:

Workers are often hurried to complete their part of the assy process before the entire unit is pushed past their work cell. Often with zero "QC" involvement in this final process of integration.


One of the issues in many industries is line speed. UAW would work with management, want a faster line put on more workers. Line too fast to do the job safely, the line stops.


Quote:

Point number 2, I guess you have never worked in any assembly plant or have setup a production floor. Depending on complexity of your device, having EACH assembled part in each section "inspected" by QC at each step of the way may or may not make sense..Workers may be fully trained in one work cell or all, partially trained or even no training other than watching someone show them once. I seriously doubt that there is any dedicated electricians, carpenters or any other specialized trades on the production line, it would cost several arms and legs to do so.


True, I worked a assembly line for a very short time. And I imagine our production rate was more like building a camper than a auto line (Converting 4 cyl Jeep and 289 Ford engines into portable air compressors. QC there was basically if the job was not right when it got to you, yell (over shop noise) lead man would look at the problem. You, lead, and the guy that messed up fix that one and mess learned. IMHO, that is near 100% inspection, and the cost is far less than taking the whole apart, or having upset customer

Quote:

A RV, nope, not worth the extra cost in man power, the worst you have there is a slight delay in your plans.


I think in most industries there would be a much greater cost; The customer that is not happy with the product. But somehow in the RV industry that does not matter.

Quote:

Not to mention absolutely no one would be willing to pay double of what a current RV costs..


But we are willing to pay, and get something that will not meet expectations? Or lower the expectation?


Quote:

Point number 4, dealers wouldn't exist since RV manufacturers wouldn't exist since the prices of the RVs would be far more than what folks could afford to buy and due to zero sales putting a lot of workers out of a job from the workers making the materials that the RV manufacturers buy, the production workers building the RVs right through the RV dealers..

The use of the mass production line speeds up the building process, lowering the cost to make which lowers the final cost to the end user.

Mass production is not perfect, but often the mistakes made are much lower than say a "one off" that is hand built by just one skilled laborer..

Take your pick, have RVs of may many styles and floor plans built in a quick time and much lower cost (mass production) or one plan which takes months or even yrs to build at a cost well above your income level (hand built one off)..


I compare the RV industry of today with the American auto industry of the early '70s. But their is not likely to be a influx of foreign built TTs to cut demand, threaten the profits of the manufacturers. The only way to change it would be stop buying the junk.

Quote:

The cheap wiring like the OP has is often a manufacturers cost cutting decision to find ways to use leftover scraps


That might be true, but from what I see it is just nobody that cared looked at it before the next step.

drsteve

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Posted: 06/22/19 06:54pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

myredracer wrote:

Ductape wrote:

Can't do better than a low resistance soldered connection. I've done the same on brand new trailers.
And I have to question their use of #18 wire. I'd like to upgrade that but wouldn't be an easy job as it's hidden behind the underbelly.


On my Coachmen, I plan on running #10 to each wheel, so I removed a few screws along the edge of the underbelly to take a look, and the brake wire is just laying on the coroplast. Should be easy to run the new wire.


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myredracer

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Posted: 06/22/19 08:04pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

drsteve wrote:

myredracer wrote:

Ductape wrote:

Can't do better than a low resistance soldered connection. I've done the same on brand new trailers.
And I have to question their use of #18 wire. I'd like to upgrade that but wouldn't be an easy job as it's hidden behind the underbelly.


On my Coachmen, I plan on running #10 to each wheel, so I removed a few screws along the edge of the underbelly to take a look, and the brake wire is just laying on the coroplast. Should be easy to run the new wire.
Picked up some #12 SAE brake wire today. I'd have to special order #10 and need it now and #12 should be fine for the length involved anyway. Definitely will be better than #18! There's a propane pipe under the I-beam I'm going to zip-tie it to. Not sure if I can get it above the coroplast.

[image]

Lynnmor

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Posted: 06/23/19 06:04am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

myredracer wrote:

Not sure if I can get it above the coroplast.

[image]


Tie it to the old wiring and see if you can pull it thru. If it doesn't work, then go with the exterior plan.





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