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Open Roads Forum  >  Tech Issues

 > Change to Lithium-ion?

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valhalla360

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Posted: 06/26/19 11:04am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Do they say why they are using them in the hot rod world? As just a starting battery, there isn't much to gain. Your average 50lb starting battery will do just fine starting most V8 engines and the alternator is really what is powering the lights and other auxiliary electrical devices.

In an RV house battery bank, there are some advantages but at a higher cost. Particularly if you are installing a large battery bank, the benefits can outweigh the downsides.

The main thing is KWH of storage per Pound and per Cubic Inch is greater with Lithium. That means with limited storage space and weight limits, you can either fit more KWH in the same space/weight or free up space/payload.

If you are at campgrounds with power most of the time, it really won't make much sense but if you are boondocking a lot away from shore power, it can be very helpful.

Not only can you store more KWH, when recharging from say a generator, they can absorb charge quickly right up to 100% charge. With lead-acid, at around 80-90%, the charge acceptance drops off and it takes a very long time to hit 100%...add in that lead-acid doesn't like to go below 50% charge (vs 10% for lithium) and you really can only use 30-40% of the rated KWH in a lead-acid battery bank...as opposed 80-90% of the rated KWH of a lithium bank.

But even so, Lithium is expensive and you need the proper charging/control systems as they are not as forgiving of the abuse that we put lead-acid thru.


Tammy & Mike
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MEXICOWANDERER

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Posted: 06/26/19 11:17am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

The above is like seeking confidence in a Lucas Ltd collision avoidance control module. There are two ways to lose confidence in WFCO products

The innocent way is to simply experience improper controls for maintaining battery lifespan and controller lifespan.

The really scary way is to not only withstand the deficiencies above but to then take one or apart and gasp at the utter ignorance of proper engineering practices (even THEORY) that are lacking in WFCO um, er, "products".

WFCO is the "Lucas Ltd" equivalent. You remember Lucas, don't you? Unwitting innovator of the intermittent windshield wiper? The accidental discoveror of the three-position-electrical-switch (SMOKE-SMOULDER-IGNITE)

BillyBob Jim

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Posted: 06/26/19 11:22am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:

The above is like seeking confidence in a Lucas Ltd collision avoidance control module. There are two ways to lose confidence in WFCO products

The innocent way is to simply experience improper controls for maintaining battery lifespan and controller lifespan.

The really scary way is to not only withstand the deficiencies above but to then take one or apart and gasp at the utter ignorance of proper engineering practices (even THEORY) that are lacking in WFCO um, er, "products".

WFCO is the "Lucas Ltd" equivalent. You remember Lucas, don't you? Unwitting innovator of the intermittent windshield wiper? The accidental discoveror of the three-position-electrical-switch (SMOKE-SMOULDER-IGNITE)



I could never get past the name.

WFCO - World Friendship Company.

Who in the hell are they friends with? Certainly not a friend of your battery LOL.

Sounds more like a religion or a cult. I sold everything then signed all my assets over to and joined World Friendship, now off to sing Kumbaya.

naturist

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Posted: 06/26/19 12:48pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

I can see the hot rod world moving to lithium ion to save every last ounce of weight. And they wouldn't be concerned with fire potential, since those things are fire bombs anyway.

As for WFCO, I'm not sure I entrust a $900+ battery bank to the mercies of a company that can't keep straight in their advertising which it is, lithium ion or lithium iron phosphate. Now I've nothing against that company, never having had any bad experiences with their products. Still . . . .





MEXICOWANDERER

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Posted: 06/26/19 02:16pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

TRUE
In the eighties, one Chinese hand tool brand was harmonious butterfly.

Maybe World Friendship is meant to reduce the possibility of having irate customers ganging up and soliciting a private bombing run over the factory.

WFCO is an epitome of GARBAGE CHINESE products.

Check out Autozone's smaller wrenches and sockets.
The product of the 'other' China Taiwan. And power supplies. Taiwan makes Meanwell. The People's Republic makes not yet landfill.

wa8yxm

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Posted: 06/26/19 04:27pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Gonzo42 wrote:

In the Hot Rod world, there is a movement to the Lithium-ion battery as an alternative to the old lead-acid type.

Looks like performance is superior, but so is the price.

Has anyone changed either their house batteries or their chassis battery to Lithium-ion?

Optima is one of the brands.


Some have. the LI folks claim the batteries have more power per cubic foot and more power per pound as well plus modern LI batteries seem to have a superior life span.

What I believe: They do pack more power in a smaller package and it's lighter as well. For the hot rodders every pound you can shed is Well an increase in your power/weight ration and a reduction in the time to the finish line.. Thus good. (The life span is not as important to them as is the prize money).

To me the price is still a bit high But worth keeping an eye on.

Progressive Dynamics now has an LI converter.. FMCA has a deal with a LI battery firm and they have a deal with PD to bundle the LI programmed converter..

I'm keeping an eye on the prize as it were but I've got several years left on my current Deka G-20's.

And I have a date with a radio in the other room.


Home is where I park it.
Kenwood TS-2000 housed in a 2005 Damon Intruder 377


CA Traveler

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Posted: 06/26/19 04:59pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

vermilye wrote:

Just finished making the change. Here is a link to the change.
Very nice write up. Avoids speculation about what can be involved including costs.


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Posted: 06/26/19 05:10pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

I can't wait to hear some of the experiences with the WFCO and lithium.


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road-runner

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Posted: 06/26/19 08:03pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

I think the WFCO bashing has gone too far. They have an undeserved bad reputation because they are rarely installed correctly, and a very deserved bad reputation from a horrible reliability history that can be traced to poor physical layout of the components. When sized correctly for the battery bank and connected to the batteries with wires that aren't pathetically undersized, the WFCO loaded sensing technique for SOC is more accurate than the no-load voltage sensing of the competitors, and the current-based fan operation anticipates the cooling need instead of reacting to it. The WFCO converters I've had supply their full rated output with marginal AC input, while the PD converters I've had taper their output if the waveform and voltage aren't right at the upper end of the specs.

If they'd fix the reliability issue and emphasize correct installation I think the WFCO converters would be the pick of the litter among the mainstream power converters.


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BillyBob Jim

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Posted: 06/26/19 08:12pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

road-runner wrote:

I think the WFCO bashing has gone too far. They have an undeserved bad reputation because they are rarely installed correctly, and a very deserved bad reputation from a horrible reliability history that can be traced to poor physical layout of the components. When sized correctly for the battery bank and connected to the batteries with wires that aren't pathetically undersized, the WFCO loaded sensing technique for SOC is more accurate than the no-load voltage sensing of the competitors, and the current-based fan operation anticipates the cooling need instead of reacting to it. The WFCO converters I've had supply their full rated output with marginal AC input, while the PD converters I've had taper their output if the waveform and voltage aren't right at the upper end of the specs.

If they'd fix the reliability issue and emphasize correct installation I think the WFCO converters would be the pick of the litter among the mainstream power converters.


Are you smoking crack? Pick of the litter my dupa. Pick of the litter is something they can only dream of even getting anywhere near close too. Absolute cheap junk which is why they are used.

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