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Open Roads Forum  >  Tow Vehicles

 > Ecoboost vs. V8 - Can you explain?

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Lynnmor

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Posted: 09/05/19 07:11am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

It would be interesting to know where that blue chart above came from. Is it a Raptor truck? Are they running high octane fuel?





carringb

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Posted: 09/05/19 07:31am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Lynnmor wrote:

It would be interesting to know where that blue chart above came from. Is it a Raptor truck? Are they running high octane fuel?


The Raptor at the time the 6.2L was available, only had the 6.2L. The H.O. 3.5L didn't come out until after the 6.2L was dropped. The regular output EcoBoost probably won't show a meaningful difference on a dyno. The 91 octane recommendation helps mostly with fuel consumption when towing, and can reduce throttle lag from timing adjustments, but that doesn't happen unless the engine is already very hot. The high-output 3.5L would benefit, but it makes ~500 ft-lbs. of twist.


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ShinerBock

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Posted: 09/05/19 07:55am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Lynnmor wrote:

It would be interesting to know where that blue chart above came from. Is it a Raptor truck? Are they running high octane fuel?


It was from the F150/Raptor version of the 6.2L that made 411 hp / 434 lb-ft with premium fuel. The Super Duty version of the 6.2L at the time made 385 hp / 405 lb-ft with regular fuel.

Ford had an asterisk on the F150 6.2L power levels stating that they were made with premium fuel which is mandated by law if you used premium fuel to achieve the advertised power levels. However, you could run regular 87 as per the manual, but with decreased power output.

See the bottom of page 5 under engine power levels.

2012 F150 Brochure

Groover

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Posted: 09/05/19 08:28am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

"Most modern diesels with VG turbos have very little lag. I would compare the turbo lag of my stock turbo on and stock tune my Cummins to the turbos on my old Ecoboost. With a tune, the turbo lag on my Cummins wasn't even noticeable."

The diesel that I drive the most is a 6.7 Cummins but it is in a motorhome on a 2013 Freightliner chassis and is detuned to only produce 300hp and 660lb-ft. Maybe it doesn't represent what is sold in pickup trucks. But, the 2019 F250 that I rented a few months ago had very noticeable turbo lag that even showed up in the acceleration charts that I shared. If traction wasn't an issue the Ecoboost handily beat the Powerstroke off the line.

On the Kubota tractor it is kind of hard to tell what the turbo is doing.

ShinerBock

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Posted: 09/05/19 08:54am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Groover wrote:

"Most modern diesels with VG turbos have very little lag. I would compare the turbo lag of my stock turbo on and stock tune my Cummins to the turbos on my old Ecoboost. With a tune, the turbo lag on my Cummins wasn't even noticeable."

The diesel that I drive the most is a 6.7 Cummins but it is in a motorhome on a 2013 Freightliner chassis and is detuned to only produce 300hp and 660lb-ft. Maybe it doesn't represent what is sold in pickup trucks. But, the 2019 F250 that I rented a few months ago had very noticeable turbo lag that even showed up in the acceleration charts that I shared. If traction wasn't an issue the Ecoboost handily beat the Powerstroke off the line.

On the Kubota tractor it is kind of hard to tell what the turbo is doing.


Ford changed the turbo on the Powerstroke in 2015 to a larger one than the previous 2011-2014 turbo. This was needed to create the 440 hp numbers, but at the expense of low end response which many who traded up from the smaller turbo version complained about.

There is no doubt that Cummins can slap a larger turbo on the Cummins with its new CP4 and make huge power, but it will loose low end response of the turbo which and will have more of an effect on lag at altitude. As I said before, it is all a give and take with turbos and it depends what the manufacturer(or owner if you are going aftermarket) wants out of their engine. For some, big horsepower is their goal, while others go for better driveability.

As far as the lower power rated Cummins in the Freightliner, that is probably due to vehicles weight as well as tuning. Generally, with the same turbo, a lower power tune with less fueling will spool slower than a higher power tune. The weight probably exacerbates the issue.

* This post was edited 09/05/19 09:20am by ShinerBock *

mich800

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Posted: 09/05/19 10:11am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

ShinerBock wrote:

Groover wrote:

"Most modern diesels with VG turbos have very little lag. I would compare the turbo lag of my stock turbo on and stock tune my Cummins to the turbos on my old Ecoboost. With a tune, the turbo lag on my Cummins wasn't even noticeable."

The diesel that I drive the most is a 6.7 Cummins but it is in a motorhome on a 2013 Freightliner chassis and is detuned to only produce 300hp and 660lb-ft. Maybe it doesn't represent what is sold in pickup trucks. But, the 2019 F250 that I rented a few months ago had very noticeable turbo lag that even showed up in the acceleration charts that I shared. If traction wasn't an issue the Ecoboost handily beat the Powerstroke off the line.

On the Kubota tractor it is kind of hard to tell what the turbo is doing.


Ford changed the turbo on the Powerstroke in 2015 to a larger one than the previous 2011-2014 turbo. This was needed to create the 440 hp numbers, but at the expense of low end response which many who traded up from the smaller turbo version complained about.

There is no doubt that Cummins can slap a larger turbo on the Cummins with its new CP4 and make huge power, but it will loose low end response of the turbo which and will have more of an effect on lag at altitude. As I said before, it is all a give and take with turbos and it depends what the manufacturer(or owner if you are going aftermarket) wants out of their engine. For some, big horsepower is their goal, while others go for better driveability.

As far as the lower power rated Cummins in the Freightliner, that is probably due to vehicles weight as well as tuning. Generally, with the same turbo, a lower power tune with less fueling will spool slower than a higher power tune. The weight probably exacerbates the issue.


That is true. But I would bet if you really dug into it. You would find much of the turbo lag found on today's vg turbos is built in intentionally via tuning for emissions.

ShinerBock

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Posted: 09/05/19 12:06pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

mich800 wrote:

ShinerBock wrote:

Groover wrote:

"Most modern diesels with VG turbos have very little lag. I would compare the turbo lag of my stock turbo on and stock tune my Cummins to the turbos on my old Ecoboost. With a tune, the turbo lag on my Cummins wasn't even noticeable."

The diesel that I drive the most is a 6.7 Cummins but it is in a motorhome on a 2013 Freightliner chassis and is detuned to only produce 300hp and 660lb-ft. Maybe it doesn't represent what is sold in pickup trucks. But, the 2019 F250 that I rented a few months ago had very noticeable turbo lag that even showed up in the acceleration charts that I shared. If traction wasn't an issue the Ecoboost handily beat the Powerstroke off the line.

On the Kubota tractor it is kind of hard to tell what the turbo is doing.


Ford changed the turbo on the Powerstroke in 2015 to a larger one than the previous 2011-2014 turbo. This was needed to create the 440 hp numbers, but at the expense of low end response which many who traded up from the smaller turbo version complained about.

There is no doubt that Cummins can slap a larger turbo on the Cummins with its new CP4 and make huge power, but it will loose low end response of the turbo which and will have more of an effect on lag at altitude. As I said before, it is all a give and take with turbos and it depends what the manufacturer(or owner if you are going aftermarket) wants out of their engine. For some, big horsepower is their goal, while others go for better driveability.

As far as the lower power rated Cummins in the Freightliner, that is probably due to vehicles weight as well as tuning. Generally, with the same turbo, a lower power tune with less fueling will spool slower than a higher power tune. The weight probably exacerbates the issue.


That is true. But I would bet if you really dug into it. You would find much of the turbo lag found on today's vg turbos is built in intentionally via tuning for emissions.


Yes, you are correct. Another reason is to keep drive pressure down at low rpms to keep from popping head gaskets which was an issue for all three when they switch to VG turbos. You can't add too much timing and boost at low rpm or bye bye head gasket. It took a few years for each of them to figure it out.

FishOnOne

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Posted: 09/06/19 05:33pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

JRscooby wrote:

ShinerBock wrote:

JRscooby wrote:

Where is it written that gas engines must be V whatever? What would happen if they put modern fuel and spark control, and a turbo on a 5 L I 6?


They probably don't do it because of the cost associated with re-engineering a whole new motor/supporting systems and completely re-tooling the factories. It is much easier and more cost effect to re-scale and take away cylinders for various displacement sizes of a certain block configuration versus having two block configurations.


Cost associated with re-engineering a whole new motor/supporting systems and completely re-tooling the factories? IMHO, they did that.
Had a engine that was pretty cheap to run, and real dependable back when using points and carb. Instead of putting Fuel Injection on that when needed to clean the exhaust everything had to go V. Ford put throttle body on the 302 V8, and made big improvement in power and economy. Why not the 300 inch 6? If they had, then would not take much to add the turbo


Ford did upgrade their I6 with fuel injection and it still was a turd to drive.


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wilber1

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Posted: 09/08/19 02:14pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

BMW seems to do pretty well with I6's.


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twodownzero

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Posted: 09/12/19 08:11am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

We'll See wrote:


Because the automakers don't want to stop making $9,000 more on the diesel option...


I highly doubt the profit margin is that much higher on a diesel vs. gas. In fact, I'd put money on them making more money selling you a gasoline powered truck, and higher profit margins in 1/2 tons overall.

JRscooby wrote:

Where is it written that gas engines must be V whatever? What would happen if they put modern fuel and spark control, and a turbo on a 5 L I 6?


An inline is heavier and has more rotational friction. You won't see an inline 6 gasoline engine in any new truck.

librty02 wrote:


Yes as I didn't state a V6. It would have to be a boosted V8 as the heavy duty trucks are just that...heavier...and that would absolutely kill the diesel sales as it would most likely get close to the same mpg's as the diesel also. I beat the socks off my 11 eco with 130k on the clock with over 60k towing on it now always getting at least 10mpg with at least 7k behind it without one single issue other than the back slider glass going bad but that's not an engine issue. Now the 18 gets 19 mpg in the city not towing and 10.5 towing.

So I stick behind what I said above because IF a boosted gas engine was avail for the heavy duty trucks it would kill the heavy duty diesel sales and the 1/2 ton sales at the same time.


Such an engine would either not have the same power as diesel or knock itself apart. If somehow it didn't knock itself to pieces under load, it would still have less power and mileage over diesel because diesel has more energy per gallon than gasoline. There is no way to overcome the laws of physics there.

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