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Huntindog

Phoenix AZ

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Posted: 09/27/19 03:25am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Gdetrailer wrote:

Huntindog wrote:

#1 This is a common misconception that has a basis in fact.

#2 Generally (maybe always now) interest on a loan is calculated daily.

#3 So if you make a payment every two weeks, you will pay interest on each payment.....

#4 But that interest is based on the outstanding balance, and days since the last payment.

#5 So even though you will be paying interest each time, it will be LESS than it would have been.

#6 IOW, it makes no difference in the total interest paid.

#7 Where the basis in fact originates is on a home loan with an escrow account for taxes and insurance. In this case, your extra payment can end up in the escrow account, where it will not reduce the loan at all.... This is when you need to specify where the extra money is to go.


#1 No, not a "misconception" on my part.

#2 Loan interest IS NOT and NEVER has been and NEVER WILL BE "calculated daily" period.

We are not talking about your standard "bank accounts" like checking or savings where the bank requires a minimum average balance or they charge you or in the case of savings not pay interest.

Interest on a loan is calculated ONCE PER PAYMENT PERIOD, not daily. You payment period could be twice a month or once a month, banks have no reason to recalculate daily.

#3 [emoticon] Don't understand as to why anyone would want to pay every two weeks if their loan term is ONCE A MONTH which is typical AND standard payment schedule.. MUCH better to simply INCLUDE an extra amount TOWARDS THE PRINCIPLE ONLY (AND YES YOU MUST SPECIFY PRINCIPLE FOR ANY LOAN). You just making things even more muddy..

#4 Yes, your interest owed IS calculated from the "outstanding balance", but it is done ONCE PER PAYMENT TERM.

You CAN however REQUEST a loan payoff amount at ANYTIME and that is where they will recalculate the interest owed prorated from the last payment.

#5 While you COULD do this, WHY would you pay P&I when you can specify HOW that extra money can be applied! Think about this for a moment.. If your loan payment is $200 and $100 of that is only being applied to the PRINCIPLE that means your balance is decreasing in half which means you end up paying in MORE INTEREST..

Think about how much faster the loan balance gets reduced if you pay $400 AND SPECIFY the $200 EXTRA is to go towards the loan balance!

Banks by default treats any extra funds as an advance towards your NEXT scheduled payment and applies it as such.

Yes, you will pay your loan down faster but not as fast as specifying how to apply the extra funds.

#6, IT DOES make a HUGE difference on how extra funds are applied, folks are just to lazy to think or do anything about it..

#7, We are not talking about "home loans" however the SAME CONCEPT OF SPECIFYING HOW THE EXTRA FUNDS ARE APPLIED WORKS ON ANY OPEN ENDED LOANS INCLUDING AUTO/RV/PERSONAL LOANS.

By the way, ZERO % loans are always CLOSED ENDED LOANS, if you pay them off early you save NOTHING, the interest is already baked in because they often take away the factory "incentives" which would have lowered the price of your purchase (FINE PRINT FOLKS, READ IT BEFORE SIGNING!)..

Found a Amortization calculator which includes optional extra payment (they call it "prepayment") which you can specify the amount extra and what effect it has on your loan term and how much interest over the loans life..

You can check it out HERE
All I am going to say, is everyone needs to read their loan documents. They will specify how payments are applied. And how interest is calculated. And what is in the documents is how it will work.... Writing a note with an extra payment DOES NOT change the loan contract that you signed.

BTW, Everytime I bought a house, thay always figure in a set amount of DAYS (usually 15) interest into the loan for closing purposes.


Many years ago, I accidently made an extra house payment. Upon discovering my mistake, I decided to skip the next payment, as I was a payment ahead.... I was charged a late fee, and had to make that next payment! Because my loan contract specified that extra payments were to go to reducing the principle of the loan, and that monthly payments were required!
Bottom line.... READ your loan documents!


* This post was edited 09/27/19 03:41am by Huntindog *


Huntindog
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Gdetrailer

PA

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Joined: 01/05/2007

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Posted: 09/27/19 05:27pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Huntindog wrote:

# 1 All I am going to say, is everyone needs to read their loan documents. They will specify how payments are applied. And how interest is calculated. And what is in the documents is how it will work....

#2 Writing a note with an extra payment DOES NOT change the loan contract that you signed.

#3 BTW, Everytime I bought a house, thay always figure in a set amount of DAYS (usually 15) interest into the loan for closing purposes.


#4 Many years ago, I accidently made an extra house payment. Upon discovering my mistake, I decided to skip the next payment, as I was a payment ahead.... I was charged a late fee, and had to make that next payment! Because my loan contract specified that extra payments were to go to reducing the principle of the loan, and that monthly payments were required!
Bottom line.... READ your loan documents!


No need to get huffy.

#1 Correct, you are signing a legal binding contract, they are going to hold you to the terms you agreed to whether you read and understand them or not.

#2, No where have I said that writing a note will change the loan contract.

Back in the day, banks sent you a FULL COUPON BOOK OF PAYMENTS FOR THE YEAR. On those coupons you had A SPECIFIC SPACE WHERE YOU SPECIFIED ANY EXTRA AMOUNT BEING SENT AND HOW YOU WANTED THAT AMOUNT TO BE APPLIED.

Fast forward to today, with advent of direct account access they may or may not send a payment book, HOWEVER YOU CAN STILL ADD EXTRA MONEY TOWARDS THE PRINCIPLE provided it is a open ended loan (if you do not know what a open ended and closed ended loan, LOOK IT UP AND LEARN.

We have done this with not only a mortgage but FIVE VEHICLES over the years and have never had any issues with the banks not following our direction on how to apply the extra funds.

With direct auto payment loans you can simply go to your lender bank and specify that you want to pay extra towards your principle. It IS that simple.

#3 I see where you got confused (and anything to do with a home mortgage IS confusing to start with)..

Banks like a lot of businesses do a financial closing of their books on a MONTHLY BASIS. This typically is at the end of the month and can follow into the beginning of the next month.

They typically will want to have your payment due before or after that monthly closing so typically your payment date will either be due the first week of the new month or on the last week of the month.

SO, they will often PRORATE the interest owed if you sign in between those times on to your first payment in order to get you on to THEIR PAYMENT CYCLE. You don't pay more interest over all (just the first payment will not apply quite as much towards the principle), it is nothing more than a accounting and payment timing thing..

#4 You made a mistake and assumed that you could "skip" a payment, your fault for not ASKING THE BANK WHAT TO DO, not the banks fault.

YES, THE BANK WANTS PAID, you failed to pay them as required.

NOT ALL bank loans specify that any extra funds will be applied to the principle (NONE OF MY LOANS HAVE EVER HAD THAT SPECIFIED) and that is WHY IT IS IMPORTANT TO TELL THEM THAT IT IS TO BE APPLIED THAT WAY.

All else fails and you don't understand something SPEAK UP AND ASK! Banks will not bite you if you ask to have a clarification.

As long as the loan is an open ended loan most banks will be happy to apply $1 or thousands of dollars towards the loan principle, heck they will have no problem getting a loan payoff amount IF YOU ASK THEM. You do not need to apply a huge sum of money, even an extra $10 per month applied to the principle CAN make a huge difference in loan length and the interest you will pay.

I am sure the OP is long gone by now..

Boon Docker

Mountain Foothills of South Western Alberta

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Posted: 09/27/19 06:01pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

No need to get huffy.

That's funny!

[emoticon] Who is doing the most yelling? [emoticon]

* This post was edited 09/27/19 06:08pm by Boon Docker *

thomasmnile

Lake Mary, FL

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Posted: 09/27/19 07:29pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Dunno but I think someone has the no longer used (for the most part) Rule of 78's interest calculation method and simple interest which does indeed calculate interest on a daily basis. Asked my wife who was 30 years in banking and worked in consumer lending.

Ride S40T

OK

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Posted: 09/27/19 10:50pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

thomasmnile wrote:

Dunno but I think someone has the no longer used (for the most part) Rule of 78's interest calculation method and simple interest which does indeed calculate interest on a daily basis. Asked my wife who was 30 years in banking and worked in consumer lending.


Yup, ditto. That's why auto dealers ask for a "10 day payoff" when we have a balance on a car we're trading in. And sometimes a part of that daily interest is returned to us, the consumer during these transactions.

And we've probably scared the heck out of the OP. A lot of sage advice here...this dealer is not above board to ask for any non-refundable money before a complete "deal" is solidified. Just nuts and quite unethical IMO.

We plopped down $500 of fully refundable at the time of our "deal" while they searched for financing. They did us right and came back with 3.5% through our own CU. Didn't like their heavy push of extended warranties, simply not worth it for us.


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Huntindog

Phoenix AZ

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Posted: 09/28/19 03:44am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Gdetrailer wrote:

Huntindog wrote:

# 1 All I am going to say, is everyone needs to read their loan documents. They will specify how payments are applied. And how interest is calculated. And what is in the documents is how it will work....

#2 Writing a note with an extra payment DOES NOT change the loan contract that you signed.

#3 BTW, Everytime I bought a house, thay always figure in a set amount of DAYS (usually 15) interest into the loan for closing purposes.


#4 Many years ago, I accidently made an extra house payment. Upon discovering my mistake, I decided to skip the next payment, as I was a payment ahead.... I was charged a late fee, and had to make that next payment! Because my loan contract specified that extra payments were to go to reducing the principle of the loan, and that monthly payments were required!
Bottom line.... READ your loan documents!


No need to get huffy.

#1 Correct, you are signing a legal binding contract, they are going to hold you to the terms you agreed to whether you read and understand them or not.

#2, No where have I said that writing a note will change the loan contract.

Back in the day, banks sent you a FULL COUPON BOOK OF PAYMENTS FOR THE YEAR. On those coupons you had A SPECIFIC SPACE WHERE YOU SPECIFIED ANY EXTRA AMOUNT BEING SENT AND HOW YOU WANTED THAT AMOUNT TO BE APPLIED.

Fast forward to today, with advent of direct account access they may or may not send a payment book, HOWEVER YOU CAN STILL ADD EXTRA MONEY TOWARDS THE PRINCIPLE provided it is a open ended loan (if you do not know what a open ended and closed ended loan, LOOK IT UP AND LEARN.

We have done this with not only a mortgage but FIVE VEHICLES over the years and have never had any issues with the banks not following our direction on how to apply the extra funds.

With direct auto payment loans you can simply go to your lender bank and specify that you want to pay extra towards your principle. It IS that simple.

#3 I see where you got confused (and anything to do with a home mortgage IS confusing to start with)..

Banks like a lot of businesses do a financial closing of their books on a MONTHLY BASIS. This typically is at the end of the month and can follow into the beginning of the next month.

They typically will want to have your payment due before or after that monthly closing so typically your payment date will either be due the first week of the new month or on the last week of the month.

SO, they will often PRORATE the interest owed if you sign in between those times on to your first payment in order to get you on to THEIR PAYMENT CYCLE. You don't pay more interest over all (just the first payment will not apply quite as much towards the principle), it is nothing more than a accounting and payment timing thing..

#4 You made a mistake and assumed that you could "skip" a payment, your fault for not ASKING THE BANK WHAT TO DO, not the banks fault.

YES, THE BANK WANTS PAID, you failed to pay them as required.

NOT ALL bank loans specify that any extra funds will be applied to the principle (NONE OF MY LOANS HAVE EVER HAD THAT SPECIFIED) and that is WHY IT IS IMPORTANT TO TELL THEM THAT IT IS TO BE APPLIED THAT WAY.

All else fails and you don't understand something SPEAK UP AND ASK! Banks will not bite you if you ask to have a clarification.

As long as the loan is an open ended loan most banks will be happy to apply $1 or thousands of dollars towards the loan principle, heck they will have no problem getting a loan payoff amount IF YOU ASK THEM. You do not need to apply a huge sum of money, even an extra $10 per month applied to the principle CAN make a huge difference in loan length and the interest you will pay.

I am sure the OP is long gone by now..

I have no need to get huffy and yell. It doesn't change the facts one bit.
You are talking about a rule of 78 method of computing interest. That was mostly oulawed in 1992. It is still legal in some states for loans under 61 months, only because its effects are not as bad for the consumer in shorter term loans. Most loans today are simple interest loans, which calculate the interest daily.

google wrote:

States outlawing use of the Rule of 78s formula in installment loans of five years and less:
Arizona Michigan
Delaware Minnesota
Idaho Nebraska
Iowa Nevada
Kansas New Hampshire
Maine New York
Maryland Oregon
Massachusetts South Dakota

Vermont
Advertiser Disclosure
At Bankrate we strive to help you make smarter financial decisions. While we adhere to strict editorial integrity, this post may contain references to products from our partners. Here’s an explanation for how we make money.

This is one rebate auto shoppers should avoid.

Some auto lenders still use the archaic and costly “Rule of 78s” formula to calculate a rebate of finance charges when a customer pays off a loan early. This rebate is actually a sneaky prepayment penalty.

“The Rule of 78s is a historical anachronism,” says David Rubinstein, vice president of the Virginia Citizens Consumer Council. “It’s simply another way of padding a loan.”


The Rule of 78s is a mathematical formula that was devised in the days before modern calculators. The formula was a quick way for lenders in the 1920s and 1930s to estimate payoff amounts when a customer paid ahead on an installment loan. It’s still around today.

Also known as the sum-of-the-digits method, the Rule of 78s gets its name from the sum of the digits one through 12 — the number of months in a year.

Wrong way
For a borrower looking to end an auto loan early, there isn’t a worse way a lender could calculate your payoff amount. The Rule of 78s formula packs extra interest charges into the early months of a loan. Using Rule of 78s, a lender typically collects three-quarters of a loan’s interest in the first half of a loan term.

There are two basic types of auto loans: simple interest loans and pre-computed loans. The Rule of 78s can only be applied to pre-computed loans that are paid ahead of schedule. To understand why this is such a lousy deal for consumers, you have to understand how a pre-computed loan works.

With a pre-computed loan, the interest owed over the life of the loan is calculated using a standard amortization table. Once you sign on the dotted line for this type of loan, you’re obligated to pay back principal plus the full amount of interest that will accrue over the entire term of the loan.

To sum up, interest on a pre-computed loan is calculated in advance and you’re on the hook for every penny of it when you sign.

In contrast, with a simple-interest loan you’re charged interest each day based on the balance you owe. So the quicker you pay down your balance the less interest you pay. A simple interest loan with no prepayment penalties rewards customers who pay ahead.

Pay ahead with a pre-computed loan that applies the “Rule of 78s” method to prepayments and you’ll be slammed with a penalty, disguised as a rebate.

Caution: Interest padding ahead
Let’s say you’re ready to pay off your 48-month auto loan a year early. Because you signed on for a pre-computed loan, you’re on the hook for 48 months worth of interest even though you’re paying off the loan in 36 months.

But your lender is going to do you a “favor.” You don’t have to pay 48 months worth of interest. Instead, he’s going to determine your payout amount including a “rebate” for those 12 months worth of finance charges you won’t have to pay.

But your payout amount won’t be what you deserve. The reason? Using the “Rule of 78s” method, your lender applies more of your previous payments toward interest and less of your previous payments toward principal.

Since less is applied toward principal, the amount you owe will be higher than expected. The earlier you try to pay off one of these loans the more you’ll have to pay. The higher the interest rate, the more that payoff amount is going to hurt.

“If it had overcharged the lender and undercharged the consumer, it would have disappeared decades ago,” says Jean Ann Fox, director of consumer protection for Consumer Federation of America.

“It’s a dirty little secret.”

Turning on the warning lights
In 1992, the U.S. Congress outlawed the use of the “Rule of 78s” formula in closed-end loans longer than 61 months.

“It just gets very egregious with a longer-term loan,” says Elizabeth Renuart, staff attorney at the National Consumer Law Center.

States outlawing use of the Rule of 78s formula in installment loans of five years and less:
Arizona Michigan
Delaware Minnesota
Idaho Nebraska
Iowa Nevada
Kansas New Hampshire
Maine New York
Maryland Oregon
Massachusetts South Dakota

Vermont
Source: CARLAW, a monthly legal reporting service for legal compliance specialists in the automobile industry.
Whether a lender can apply the “Rule of 78s” method to installment loans of five years or less is a matter of state law. Currently, 17 states prohibit the practice.

Earlier last year, U.S. Rep. John LaFalce, D-N.Y., introduced a bill (H.R. 1054) that would eliminate the use of the Rule of 78s formula in credit transactions.

Fortunately for consumers, simple interest loans are now the norm in the auto financing business. The vast majority of auto lenders do not use pre-computed auto loans and they do not use the Rule of 78s method to calculate prepayments.
Advertiser Disclosure
At Bankrate we strive to help you make smarter financial decisions. While we adhere to strict editorial integrity, this post may contain references to products from our partners. Here’s an explanation for how we make money.

This is one rebate auto shoppers should avoid.

Some auto lenders still use the archaic and costly “Rule of 78s” formula to calculate a rebate of finance charges when a customer pays off a loan early. This rebate is actually a sneaky prepayment penalty.

“The Rule of 78s is a historical anachronism,” says David Rubinstein, vice president of the Virginia Citizens Consumer Council. “It’s simply another way of padding a loan.”


The Rule of 78s is a mathematical formula that was devised in the days before modern calculators. The formula was a quick way for lenders in the 1920s and 1930s to estimate payoff amounts when a customer paid ahead on an installment loan. It’s still around today.

Also known as the sum-of-the-digits method, the Rule of 78s gets its name from the sum of the digits one through 12 — the number of months in a year.

Wrong way
For a borrower looking to end an auto loan early, there isn’t a worse way a lender could calculate your payoff amount. The Rule of 78s formula packs extra interest charges into the early months of a loan. Using Rule of 78s, a lender typically collects three-quarters of a loan’s interest in the first half of a loan term.

There are two basic types of auto loans: simple interest loans and pre-computed loans. The Rule of 78s can only be applied to pre-computed loans that are paid ahead of schedule. To understand why this is such a lousy deal for consumers, you have to understand how a pre-computed loan works.

With a pre-computed loan, the interest owed over the life of the loan is calculated using a standard amortization table. Once you sign on the dotted line for this type of loan, you’re obligated to pay back principal plus the full amount of interest that will accrue over the entire term of the loan.

To sum up, interest on a pre-computed loan is calculated in advance and you’re on the hook for every penny of it when you sign.

In contrast, with a simple-interest loan you’re charged interest each day based on the balance you owe. So the quicker you pay down your balance the less interest you pay. A simple interest loan with no prepayment penalties rewards customers who pay ahead.

Pay ahead with a pre-computed loan that applies the “Rule of 78s” method to prepayments and you’ll be slammed with a penalty, disguised as a rebate.

Caution: Interest padding ahead
Let’s say you’re ready to pay off your 48-month auto loan a year early. Because you signed on for a pre-computed loan, you’re on the hook for 48 months worth of interest even though you’re paying off the loan in 36 months.

But your lender is going to do you a “favor.” You don’t have to pay 48 months worth of interest. Instead, he’s going to determine your payout amount including a “rebate” for those 12 months worth of finance charges you won’t have to pay.

But your payout amount won’t be what you deserve. The reason? Using the “Rule of 78s” method, your lender applies more of your previous payments toward interest and less of your previous payments toward principal.

Since less is applied toward principal, the amount you owe will be higher than expected. The earlier you try to pay off one of these loans the more you’ll have to pay. The higher the interest rate, the more that payoff amount is going to hurt.

“If it had overcharged the lender and undercharged the consumer, it would have disappeared decades ago,” says Jean Ann Fox, director of consumer protection for Consumer Federation of America.

“It’s a dirty little secret.”

Turning on the warning lights
In 1992, the U.S. Congress outlawed the use of the “Rule of 78s” formula in closed-end loans longer than 61 months.

“It just gets very egregious with a longer-term loan,” says Elizabeth Renuart, staff attorney at the National Consumer Law Center.

States outlawing use of the Rule of 78s formula in installment loans of five years and less:
Arizona Michigan
Delaware Minnesota
Idaho Nebraska
Iowa Nevada
Kansas New Hampshire
Maine New York
Maryland Oregon
Massachusetts South Dakota

Vermont
Source: CARLAW, a monthly legal reporting service for legal compliance specialists in the automobile industry.
Whether a lender can apply the “Rule of 78s” method to installment loans of five years or less is a matter of state law. Currently, 17 states prohibit the practice.

Earlier last year, U.S. Rep. John LaFalce, D-N.Y., introduced a bill (H.R. 1054) that would eliminate the use of the Rule of 78s formula in credit transactions.

Fortunately for consumers, simple interest loans are now the norm in the auto financing business. The vast majority of auto lenders do not use pre-computed auto loans and they do not use the Rule of 78s method to calculate prepayments.

“The Rule of 78s as it applies to installment auto sales is a relic of the past,” says David Robertson, executive director of the Association of Finance and Insurance Professionals.

“In today’s mainstream market, that would be an absolute rarity.”

The pre-computed Rule of 78s auto loans that do exist today tend to be found in the subprime market. Folks with less-than-perfect credit should be on the lookout.

“Buy here, pay here” auto lots and lenders that specialize in offering loans to borrowers with badly damaged credit may offer these consumer-unfriendly loans.

“All the ones I’ve seen have had really high interest rates,” says Mark Eskeldson, an auto expert and author of CarInfo.com, a consumer information and advocacy Web site.

“If a car dealer is trying to put you into a rule of 78s loan it’s fairly safe to assume that the dealer has packed your interest rate — he’s inflated it.”

Watch out for ‘interest rebates’
Don’t let this happen to you. Be leery of signing any financing contract that mentions a refund or rebate of interest. That’s a sure sign you’re about to sign on for a pre-computed loan and not a simple interest loan. Be sure to ask.

“If you see that there may be a refund of interest, that’s the first red flag that you don’t want this loan,” Eskeldson says.

And because it puts the most bucks in his pocket, there’s a good chance that a lender offering a pre-computed loan will apply the Rule of 78s formula to all prepayments.

Check the front of a loan contract to see whether it allows a refund or rebate of interest. Flip over to the back of the contract and look under the section on prepayments for further details. Some contracts even mention Rule of 78s.

“You’re more likely to find it in subprime, but you can’t assume it wasn’t used in the contract you signed,” Fox says. “You have to look.”

Avoid signing on to loans that apply the Rule of 78s formula to prepayments. If you’ve already signed on the dotted line, you’re best bet is to make your payments as scheduled. Because of the penalties, there’s really no point in paying ahead.

“You’re stuck,” says Jack Gillis, author of The Car Book. “You have no leverage. They’re not going to let you out of the deal. If you refinance you just end up paying more.”


jimx200

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Posted: 09/28/19 08:10am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Hopefully you are aware that this $22,000 trailer's value will drop like a rock the minute you tow it off the lot..probably 30%. I would never give a dealer a $1,000 deposit as you will play hell getting it back. There are plenty of late model used trailers that will run you around HALF of that $22,000. Don't be the fool and take that value loss and still be on the hook for the full amount. Here in California, there are many late model rv's of all sorts to be found at half what they sold. This ia great time to find deals.

badsix

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Posted: 09/28/19 03:25pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

ah we have a solution ^^^ read this then read it again until it makes since, the man is right. start shopping for a good used unit it might take a little time but be calm and look.
Jay D.

spoon059

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Posted: 09/28/19 03:49pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Just curious why the OP would consider a TWELVE YEAR LOAN on a $22,000 trailer. That is a mortgage on the equivalent of a car price. Why not 5 or 6 year loan at a more standard 3-4%? Payments are a little higher, but there is an end in sight.

I used to work at Sears when I was in college. They would advertise the Sears credit price. Buy this $4000 television for only 18% a month!!! But if you did the math you almost never paid it off. You ended up paying tons and tons of money for that "$4000" tv.


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Jennifer Koper

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Posted: 09/29/19 07:46am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

I don't know what other preposition you could use. "For," maybe, but in this construction "at" works better. The price is $65; at that price, it's a good deal. If they priced it at $100, it would probably not be a good deal.

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