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Open Roads Forum  >  Tow Vehicles

 > Ford 6.7L 1050 ft lbs TQ at 1,600 rpm, 475 HP at 2,800 rpm

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Grit dog

Black Diamond, WA

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Posted: 09/27/19 10:00pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

FishOnOne wrote:

Here's TFL's report. Man those intake runners on that 7.3 are massive. If I were to purchase a new Super Duty today it would be a F350 King Ranch with the Tremor package.

Link


Yup that engine can/will be a monster! Good thing for the 20k towing capacity. Should be able to pull a solid days worth of gas tanker. Lol!


"Yes Sir, Oct 10 1888, Those poor school children froze to death in their tracks. They did not even find them until Spring. Especially hard hit were the ones who had to trek uphill to school both ways, with no shoes." -Bert A.

Grit dog

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Posted: 09/27/19 10:04pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

dodge guy wrote:

Cummins12V98 wrote:

dodge guy wrote:

Cummins12V98 wrote:

"20 MPG pulling 20,000 lbs"

That right there is "Fantasy Island".


So was 1000ft lbs of torque! And we’ve got that!


1,000# tq was nothing on the modified 5.9 CUMMINS. Plain n simple 20mpg ain't gonna happen.


Right but not from the factory. Back then a lot of people said they couldn't see it putting out more than 600-700.

Anything is possible if you try hard enough!


But those lot of people didn't have a clue. By the time 6-700 ft lbs was en vogue, there were enough 1000 ft lb trucks running around as dailys and tow pigs to stretch from here to the east coat tip to tail.

Cummins12V98

on the road

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Posted: 09/28/19 10:13am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

My Son's 98 24V Cummins RAM hit 440 rear wheel HP at BD, who knows what the TQ was. He also hit 103 at 12.78 at Spokane International both examples were with a stock turbo. Truck was 6,500# 4x4 regular cab. It was his daily driver for years.


2015 RAM LongHorn 3500 Dually CrewCab 4X4 CUMMINS/AISIN RearAir 385HP/865TQ 4:10's
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4x4ord

Alberta

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Posted: 09/29/19 09:49pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

rjstractor wrote:

ShinerBock wrote:

Yeah. If this is sustained power, then it should easily mop the floor with the other two.

Advertisement laws do not require a manufacturer to advertise sustained power numbers. All they have to so is reach a certain power level in a short burst in accordance to SAE procedures which is at low altitudes. Some manufacturers factor in sustained power, and some don't. I wish sustained power numbers was a requirement for the J2807 tow standard meaning you can only advertise the lowest power an engine makes performing the up hill test. I have a feeling that some of the power ratings would drop considerably if it were.


Agreed. I'm not exactly sure how commercial truck engines are rated, but I have a feeling that the early 2000s Freightliner I occasionally drive will put out its rated 515 hp for hours at a time. I'd love to run it up the Ike pulling 60K combined against the new Ford at 40K. I think I know which one would do better...


I think you're right that a 515 hp engine in a heavy duty truck can put out peak power all day long. These pick up truck engines may also be capable of running at peak power all day long. It is possible that the reason they don't make advertised hp on the Ike run is due to the extreme elevation. I wonder if the turbos on the pick up truck engines are capable of pumping enough air at 10,000 feet elevation to allow full fuel to be delivered? Maybe fuel is restricted under those conditions to prevent excessive exhaust gas temperatures?


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ShinerBock

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Posted: 09/30/19 10:09am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

4x4ord wrote:

rjstractor wrote:

ShinerBock wrote:

Yeah. If this is sustained power, then it should easily mop the floor with the other two.

Advertisement laws do not require a manufacturer to advertise sustained power numbers. All they have to so is reach a certain power level in a short burst in accordance to SAE procedures which is at low altitudes. Some manufacturers factor in sustained power, and some don't. I wish sustained power numbers was a requirement for the J2807 tow standard meaning you can only advertise the lowest power an engine makes performing the up hill test. I have a feeling that some of the power ratings would drop considerably if it were.


Agreed. I'm not exactly sure how commercial truck engines are rated, but I have a feeling that the early 2000s Freightliner I occasionally drive will put out its rated 515 hp for hours at a time. I'd love to run it up the Ike pulling 60K combined against the new Ford at 40K. I think I know which one would do better...


I think you're right that a 515 hp engine in a heavy duty truck can put out peak power all day long. These pick up truck engines may also be capable of running at peak power all day long. It is possible that the reason they don't make advertised hp on the Ike run is due to the extreme elevation. I wonder if the turbos on the pick up truck engines are capable of pumping enough air at 10,000 feet elevation to allow full fuel to be delivered? Maybe fuel is restricted under those conditions to prevent excessive exhaust gas temperatures?


This is why I wish these guys would invest in an Edge CTS2 monitor or a Banks monitor. These will tell you for sure if fuel is being cut or not. As far as turbo's go, it depends on many things like blade size, blade composition, blade count, blade profile, bearing type, housing a/r ratio, and a few other things on whether it can pump enough air at higher altitudes. It just depends on how the manufacturer designed the turbo and what they want out of it. Some may have designed it to make the same power for all situations even up to 10k ft, which means you won't have high power numbers. Others may have designed it for better power numbers at low altitude, but loses efficiency as elevation increases.

There is not a doubt in my mind that the new PSD will defuel if towing heavy in Ike with those power numbers. They can barely be sustained towing that much with a deleted truck with no restrictive emissions systems let alone with them on. That 475hp is about 410 hp at the wheels which is right around the light tow tune on a deleted truck with all other stock components like turbo and fuel. Another draw back is the water to air intercooler on the new PSD's which is good for short burst power with time to cool off in between, but they are not good for sustained power once they get heat soaked. You are drawing in hot air at that point which causes hotter EGT's.

As far as the big diesel versus smaller diesel making the same power, of course the bigger diesel will be able to sustain those power numbers better because it is able to move more air for the amount of fuel needed to make 515hp. Although, 515 hp is about 450 at the wheels which is my level 2 tune. When I was tuned, but had my emissions system, I could barely sustain that power level towing 5k under high load. When I was tuned and deleted, but had the stock turbo, I could maybe tow about 8k-10k sustained at that power level. Now that I have a larger turbo with more air flow, I can easily tow my 14k trailer sustained at that power level.

* This post was edited 09/30/19 10:18am by ShinerBock *

4x4ord

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Posted: 09/30/19 01:28pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

ShinerBock wrote:


As far as the big diesel versus smaller diesel making the same power, of course the bigger diesel will be able to sustain those power numbers better because it is able to move more air for the amount of fuel needed to make 515hp. Although, 515 hp is about 450 at the wheels which is my level 2 tune. When I was tuned, but had my emissions system, I could barely sustain that power level towing 5k under high load. When I was tuned and deleted, but had the stock turbo, I could maybe tow about 8k-10k sustained at that power level. Now that I have a larger turbo with more air flow, I can easily tow my 14k trailer sustained at that power level.


The industrial diesels move a little more air per HP but when you actually do the math the numbers might surprise you.

A Cat C13 can be speced to produce 520 HP (and we have Cat C13s in some of our equipment where they produce up to 543 HP) The C13s produce peak HP from 1800 rpm to 2100. So it is designed to run all day long delivering 520 HP @ 1800 rpm.

The C13 has a displacement of 12.5 liters. So at 1800 rpm it can produce 520/(1800 x 12.5) = .023 HP/rpm liter. If the Powerstroke were tuned to produce .023 HP/rpm liter it would make 431 HP (.023 x 2800 x 6.7). So although the industrial engine at 1800 rpm produces less power per litre displacement it doesn't pump a whole lot more air per HP produced when compared to the Powerstroke at 2800 rpm.

Fordlover

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Posted: 09/30/19 01:52pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

ShinerBock wrote:

A little off topic, but I have to ask. When is enough going to be enough for everyone regarding towing in a class 3 truck? 40k, 50k, 60k? Mine was 30k, but I am wondering what ya'lls is.


I saw an article a little while back that basically said the manufacturers hadn't found a price of truck yet that people aren't willing to buy. 60K, no problem. 80K, no problem.

Now we have 90K F-450 platinum trucks and folks are still climbing over each other to hand Ford their money. So Ford is constantly looking for the next feature to add to the truck so they can charge 100K.

Not a hater by the way, I enjoy the heck of out my Lariat ultimate pkg.


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RoyJ

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Posted: 09/30/19 06:19pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

4x4ord wrote:

The industrial diesels move a little more air per HP but when you actually do the math the numbers might surprise you.

A Cat C13 can be speced to produce 520 HP (and we have Cat C13s in some of our equipment where they produce up to 543 HP) The C13s produce peak HP from 1800 rpm to 2100. So it is designed to run all day long delivering 520 HP @ 1800 rpm.

The C13 has a displacement of 12.5 liters. So at 1800 rpm it can produce 520/(1800 x 12.5) = .023 HP/rpm liter. If the Powerstroke were tuned to produce .023 HP/rpm liter it would make 431 HP (.023 x 2800 x 6.7). So although the industrial engine at 1800 rpm produces less power per litre displacement it doesn't pump a whole lot more air per HP produced when compared to the Powerstroke at 2800 rpm.


You'd also have to factor in boost and volumetric effciency with those calculations. By your math, I'd guess the PS has higher boost as it makes more hp/rpm/L. Plus at high rpm the VE is usually lower, so it needs even more boost to overcome that.

RoyJ

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Posted: 09/30/19 06:25pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

4x4ord wrote:

I think you're right that a 515 hp engine in a heavy duty truck cn put out peak power all day long. These pick up truck engines may also be capable of running at peak power all day long. It is possible that the reason they don't make advertised hp on the Ike run is due to the extreme elevation. I wonder if the turbos on the pick up truck engines are capable of pumping enough air at 10,000 feet elevation to allow full fuel to be delivered? Maybe fuel is restricted under those conditions to prevent excessive exhaust gas temperatures?


Big trucks do lose a bit of power at 10,000' elevation. Even if the turbo has excess boost capacity, it'll be running at a higher pressure ratio to attain the same manifold boost. This means high intake air temperature.

The fan (40 - 50hp) would either run more to move air across the intercooler (much harder in thin air), or run the same, but with hotter air (less O2) reaching the cylinders. Both saps power.

I also doubt the PS or any other pickup engine can sustain full power up the IKE.

ShinerBock

SATX

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Posted: 09/30/19 07:19pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

4x4ord wrote:

ShinerBock wrote:


As far as the big diesel versus smaller diesel making the same power, of course the bigger diesel will be able to sustain those power numbers better because it is able to move more air for the amount of fuel needed to make 515hp. Although, 515 hp is about 450 at the wheels which is my level 2 tune. When I was tuned, but had my emissions system, I could barely sustain that power level towing 5k under high load. When I was tuned and deleted, but had the stock turbo, I could maybe tow about 8k-10k sustained at that power level. Now that I have a larger turbo with more air flow, I can easily tow my 14k trailer sustained at that power level.


The industrial diesels move a little more air per HP but when you actually do the math the numbers might surprise you.

A Cat C13 can be speced to produce 520 HP (and we have Cat C13s in some of our equipment where they produce up to 543 HP) The C13s produce peak HP from 1800 rpm to 2100. So it is designed to run all day long delivering 520 HP @ 1800 rpm.

The C13 has a displacement of 12.5 liters. So at 1800 rpm it can produce 520/(1800 x 12.5) = .023 HP/rpm liter. If the Powerstroke were tuned to produce .023 HP/rpm liter it would make 431 HP (.023 x 2800 x 6.7). So although the industrial engine at 1800 rpm produces less power per litre displacement it doesn't pump a whole lot more air per HP produced when compared to the Powerstroke at 2800 rpm.


A C13 did not produce 520 hp. At least not on any stock on road truck. The max the C13 produced was 430 hp. The C15 was the one that created 520 hp and more. You are also not counting for air flow from the turbo (since it changes and engines effective displacement) and compression ratio.

* This post was last edited 09/30/19 07:57pm by ShinerBock *   View edit history

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