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 > Boeing 737 crashes..........why ?

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akaPedro

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Posted: 10/30/19 06:33am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Did it have to do with re-certification of the pilots... which apparently would take a lot of time ?

Crowe

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Posted: 10/30/19 07:25am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

In reality the answer is GRAVITY.


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Cloud Dancer

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Posted: 10/30/19 08:42am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

akaPedro wrote:

Did it have to do with re-certification of the pilots... which apparently would take a lot of time ?

*
*
No, it had to do with Type Rating. It's costly and time consuming.
It's like being certified to fly a new type of aircraft. It forces a pilot to learn just about everything about the aircraft.
IMO if all pilots who transitioned into the new 737 MAX had been required to at least receive special and specific training in all the changes and upgrades, the majority of them would have discovered the design deficiency (the "gotchas"), in which case MANY of them would've demanded CHANGES (prior to carrying passengers).
The branch of government that is authorized to mandate type rating, or specific training is the FAA. It's THEIR responsibility. The dilema is that there's enough blame to go around.


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way2roll

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Posted: 10/30/19 10:42am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

At the end of the day the answer is the same to the questions of - why do we allow chemical runoff to contaminate rivers and aquifers, why do we allow known carcinogens to be sold in over the counter products, Why do we allow anything that knowingly kills people to be marketed and sold? The answer is money. It's not only often too expensive to take steps to prevent killing people, it's often very profitable to make things that knowingly kill people. Money, corporations are literally making money from killing people - legally. Morals are checked at the door and educated decisions are made to opt for greater profits and lower cost at the risk of you and me. Decisions are made that come down to this - money is more important than someone's life. There is a difference between government too big and protecting people from themselves and companies doing things in secret that risk lives for the sake of a dollar.

Cloud Dancer

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Posted: 10/30/19 10:53am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

The love of money is no secret. Plus, it's a useful think to have. It's a given. Why do airplanes crash, is a more complicated subject. However, The first ones I suspect are the pilots. I was one of the lucky ones.

PA12DRVR

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Posted: 10/31/19 11:01am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

I read on another forum that the training on the 737Max was "incomplete" (I can't recall a better word, but I'm trying to report rather than criticize) in that the training didn't address quite a few situations that faced a combination of:
- being at some edge of the performance envelope (primarily, strangely enough, near MCAS)
- Where the procedures for the 737 might not have been updated to reflect the unique computer / control interfaces in the 737Max
-...and therefore the pilot was having to both deal with the aircraft envelope and was also essentially fighting the computer.

This other forum has several members who are primarily retired major line ATP's, including one that pulled the plug because he was entitled and because his new routes were going to be on the 737Max <<<< the internet makes liars of us all but if that one is true, I find it interesting.


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sayoung

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Posted: 10/31/19 11:11am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

I also visit a Cessna forum and lots of Airline pilots are talking about this. Training also was different between US carriers than overseas carriers. I haven't done the fact check but one of the crashes the 1st Officer ( co-pilot ) is said to had only about 150 hours total time flying, yikes. The trim problem has happened to US flight crews and they were skilled OR lucky enough to realize to turn the computer off and fly the plane .

* This post was edited 10/31/19 11:43am by an administrator/moderator *

atreis

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Posted: 11/01/19 05:30am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

akaPedro wrote:

Why were the MCAS controls installed in the first place ? I read 3-4 months ago, somewhere, that Boeing retrofitted the 737 with new engines. Heavier but more fuel efficient.

The added weight affected the wings...causing the plane to dip down.... and the MCAS was added to keep the plane level.

Did not work apparently. Anyone else have info as to why the MCAS was added ?


The engines are physically larger and would have hit the ground if mounted at the original location. They moved them forward some so that they could mount them at a higher location. Engines are heavy.
That shifted the center of gravity of the plane forward from where it was previously, requiring a flight control system fix to adjust how the plane flies such that it would behave similar to what pilots were expecting.

CG in planes is very critical for good flight control. (BTW, this is why when you're on a not-full flight passengers get scattered around the cabin - to keep the weight distribution even.)


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Cloud Dancer

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Posted: 11/01/19 10:03am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Nose-heavy aircraft is nothing new. Setting ALL trims according to the take-off weight-and-balance data is nothing new. Hand flying during takeoff, and and trimming the aircraft as necessary during climb-out is nothing new. Granted, in order to do it safely, you not only need to be systems knowledgeable, but you also need to be an experienced aviator,...not just a pilot. An aviator knows the limits of elevator and stabilizer authority, and the difference between full power and takeoff power, and the limits of rudder authority,.....plus hundreds of other important related things.
In aviation, it's easy to learn that if you go too slow, you might fall out of the sky. It takes a lot more time to learn that if you go too fast you might go into Mach Tuck, from which you will problably NOT recover.

philh

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Posted: 11/01/19 06:05pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Cloud Dancer wrote:

Nose-heavy aircraft is nothing new. Setting ALL trims according to the take-off weight-and-balance data is nothing new. Hand flying during takeoff, and and trimming the aircraft as necessary during climb-out is nothing new. Granted, in order to do it safely, you not only need to be systems knowledgeable, but you also need to be an experienced aviator,...not just a pilot. An aviator knows the limits of elevator and stabilizer authority, and the difference between full power and takeoff power, and the limits of rudder authority,.....plus hundreds of other important related things.
In aviation, it's easy to learn that if you go too slow, you might fall out of the sky. It takes a lot more time to learn that if you go too fast you might go into Mach Tuck, from which you will problably NOT recover.

Completely off topic, I'm on a charter flight, don't recall the plane, but it was a turbo prop. Also happen to be PPL-IFR. I'm sitting in the back of the plane, clear view of the cockpit and the right seat is stiff arming the yoke. I muttered that's not good, my VP of operations of VP, also PPL looks over and says no it's not... first lesson, think before speaking.

Bottom line, they washed the airplane before picking us up, and during the climb to flight levels, trim froze. When they leveled off, plane wanted to keep climbing.

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