RV.Net Open Roads Forum: Around the Campfire: Boeing 737 crashes..........why ?

RV Blog

  |  

RV Sales

  |  

Campgrounds

  |  

RV Parks

  |  

RV Club

  |  

RV Buyers Guide

  |  

Roadside Assistance

  |  

Extended Service Plan

  |  

RV Travel Assistance

  |  

RV Credit Card

  |  

RV Loans

Open Roads Forum Already a member? Login here.   If not, Register Today!  |  Help

Newest  |  Active  |  Popular  |  RVing FAQ Forum Rules  |  Forum Posting Help and Support  |  Contact  

Search:   Advanced Search

Search only in Around the Campfire

Open Roads Forum  >  Around the Campfire  >  General Topics

 > Boeing 737 crashes..........why ?

This Topic Is Closed  |  Print Topic  |  Post New Topic  | 
Page of 9  
Prev  |  Next
Sponsored By:
Cloud Dancer

San Antonio and Livingston TX USA

Senior Member

Joined: 06/08/2001

View Profile



Posted: 11/03/19 12:51pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

"Buyer Beware", it's as important as ever. Why does the MAX model costs so much more than the non-max model? Shouldn't you want your own expert to answer this question, before you sign the check?
Why was there only one AOA sensor? With two AOA sensors, the MCAS computer has to be a lot smarter. It has to instantly figure out which one to believe. The previous 737 model has TWO aoa sensors. In the airplanes that I flew, I had a lot of training on how I could determine which indicator to believe. Why did the FAA certify the one sensor MAX?


Willie & Betty Sue
Miko & Sparky
2003 41 ft Dutch Star Diesel Pusher/Spartan
Floorplan 4010
Blazer toad & Ranger bassboat

Cloud Dancer

San Antonio and Livingston TX USA

Senior Member

Joined: 06/08/2001

View Profile



Posted: 11/04/19 08:47am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Another question, on the 737 MAX?... IS the stick puller/pusher interfaced with the MCAS. It occurred to me that back when I went to school to get my first type rating and ATP rating, I was taught the procedure for the survival attempt in event of entering a microburst when established and coupled on the ILS, gear down and 30 degrees flaps:... immediately hand fly, go to take-off power and pull back and hold yoke at first indication of stick shaker, maintain runway alignment, and communicate intentions.
What is the procedure in the MAX? My guess is, DO NOT venture into a microburst.
*
*
"Think of the stick shaker/pusher found in transport-category aircraft as a bit of a lazy pilot’s angle of attack indicator. Should the flying pilot become distracted enough that they fail to notice an increasing angle of attack, to a point where the wing is about to cease producing sufficient lift, an airplane equipped with a shaker/pusher system will jump in to try to save the day by reducing the angle of attack. More precisely, the stick shaker acts as a stall-warning device, while the stick pusher’s job is one of stall avoidance."

* This post was edited 11/04/19 10:30am by Cloud Dancer *

PA12DRVR

Back in God's Country

Senior Member

Joined: 09/17/2003

View Profile



Posted: 11/04/19 09:36am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Makes me appreciate the ol' PA-12:
- gear's always down [emoticon],
- the AOA is very limited function (only when critical) and is built into the seat [emoticon]
- gentle sashay when "stalling" (have to do a whip stall to get a break),
......and MCAS is well below where the ASI stops indicating.


CRL
My RV is a 1946 PA-12
Back in the GWN

Cloud Dancer

San Antonio and Livingston TX USA

Senior Member

Joined: 06/08/2001

View Profile



Posted: 11/04/19 10:04am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

My C140 was NOT IFR certified either, but low, slow and visual was fun.
However, my C185 had a heated prop, plus IFR certified instruments. Got a lot of utility out of that one.

Jetstreamer

Milwaukee, Wisconsin

Senior Member

Joined: 12/16/2009

View Profile


Offline
Posted: 11/04/19 10:15am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Cloud Dancer wrote:

Another question, on the 737 MAX?... IS the stick puller/pusher interfaced with the MCAS. It occurred to me that back when I went to school to get my first type rating and ATP rating, I was taught the procedure for the survival attempt in event of entering a microburst when established and coupled on the ILS, gear down and 30 degrees flaps:... immediately hand fly, go to take-off power and pull back and hold yoke at first indication of stick shaker, maintain runway alignment, and communicate intentions.
What is the procedure in the MAX? My guess is, DO NOT venture into a microburst.

I’m not an expert on this because I haven’t flown the Max but to answer your question I’m sure that a microburst escape maneuver wouldn’t be flown any different. The MCAS isn’t even online if the flaps are down.

aftermath

Washington State

Senior Member

Joined: 09/18/2005

View Profile



Good Sam RV Club Member

Offline
Posted: 11/04/19 10:30am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

I am not a pilot but am the son of one. I live in Washington where Boeing is King. I read about a dust up between the Union representing the Engineers and Boeing a couple of years (?) ago. I am sure that it wasn't directly linked to the current problems but it might give some insight into Boeing's goals.

The Engineers were concerned when Boeing decided to reduce the number of quality control staff out on the production lines. The old system required a number of redundant quality checks in certain systems. An inspector would certify a part or assembly and then later in the production more certification would happen. The company claimed that the first check was sufficient because of few problems that happened down line. So, their main goal here was to reduce the number of quality control personel which would speed the process and, in the end, cost the company less.

Fast forward to the MAX issue. What did they do? Cut corners in training of pilots for sure. I also would claim that they cut a few corners in quality control complaints that they did receive from test pilots. This has been established during the review.

We all know that greed is a bad thing. I think Boeing will suffer mightily from this problem. It most likely will be felt in the local economy soon. Sad day for Seattle.


2017 Toyota Tundra, Double Cab, 5.7L V8
2006 Airstream 25 FB SE
Equalizer Hitch

Cloud Dancer

San Antonio and Livingston TX USA

Senior Member

Joined: 06/08/2001

View Profile



Posted: 11/04/19 10:54am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Thanks Jetstreamer, a airline pilot friend called me and added that he thought the 737 MAX did not have a stick pusher/puller.
The next question is; does the MCAS system go offline at even the first notch of flaps? If so, would this stop a runaway stab jackscrew? I ask because the reports indicate that the doomed crew could only disable the MCAS stab trim motor momentarily, at which time they would hand-wheel trim it. But, they ran out of time.

JRscooby

Indepmo

Senior Member

Joined: 06/10/2019

View Profile


Offline
Posted: 11/04/19 11:44am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Cloud Dancer wrote:

"Buyer Beware", it's as important as ever. Why does the MAX model costs so much more than the non-max model? Shouldn't you want your own expert to answer this question, before you sign the check?


Really? When you fold that bill and stick in your pocket, is it Buyer Beware?" Personally I expect the "Full faith and credit" of the Gov to stand behind it. If the FAA certified the plane to be flown by pilots that where trained for the earlier models, it should not crash.

Cloud Dancer

San Antonio and Livingston TX USA

Senior Member

Joined: 06/08/2001

View Profile



Posted: 11/04/19 12:12pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

The FAA certified the 737 MAX under whatever guidelines are set forth by the FAA. Just because the FAA allows pilots with a 737 type rating to fly the MAX does NOT mean to me that NO special training is needed in order to safely fly it. Who is responsible for hiring and training safe pilots? Whoever it is, FAA sets the guidelines.
I don't know of a single chief pilot who would allow one of their 737 pilots to fly a MAX, without giving him/her special MAX-specific training.
I'm in favor of saving all the Boeing jobs. I'm in favor of the FAA receiving the funds to hire qualified people,...as many as needed in order to get the MAX flying.

Jetstreamer

Milwaukee, Wisconsin

Senior Member

Joined: 12/16/2009

View Profile


Offline
Posted: 11/04/19 12:26pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Cloud Dancer wrote:

Thanks Jetstreamer, a airline pilot friend called me and added that he thought the 737 MAX did not have a stick pusher/puller.
The next question is; does the MCAS system go offline at even the first notch of flaps? If so, would this stop a runaway stab jackscrew? I ask because the reports indicate that the doomed crew could only disable the MCAS stab trim motor momentarily, at which time they would hand-wheel trim it. But, they ran out of time.


Again I don’t fly them but I can’t imagine any Boeing aircraft without a stick pusher. It’s never a “puller” because it is always meant to lower the nose.
It’s technically a shaker/pusher.
There isn’t any reason the trim cutout switches could have been left off. But what followed was that the pilots didn’t pull the power back in a level off and the airspeed got so high that they couldn’t manually trim anymore. So I believe the switch got turned back on somewhere thereby reactivating the MCAS trim input.
And I’m not sure about the flap thing. They wouldn’t of came down anyway due to their speed.
Again, I’m no expert on this scenario at all but I do know some Boeing basics.

This Topic Is Closed  |  Print Topic  |  Post New Topic  | 
Page of 9  
Prev  |  Next

Open Roads Forum  >  Around the Campfire  >  General Topics

 > Boeing 737 crashes..........why ?
Search:   Advanced Search

Search only in Around the Campfire


New posts No new posts
Closed, new posts Closed, no new posts
Moved, new posts Moved, no new posts

Adjust text size:




© 2020 CWI, Inc. © 2020 Good Sam Enterprises, LLC. All Rights Reserved.