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Open Roads Forum  >  Around the Campfire  >  General Topics

 > Boeing 737 crashes..........why ?

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sayoung

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Posted: 11/10/19 05:13pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

akaPedro wrote:

Boeing used their influence in D.C. to insert ODA wording in latest FAA funding bill so they can bypass FAA people and have their own people certify the 737 was just fine.

Think also...they hired Collins Software to do the programming of the MCAS and some or all of the work was outsourced to India.....

Give the man a cigar ! My BiL is a long time IT/programmer since early 70's and now does some recruiting stuff . He has been saying from the 1st crash it was cheap programming by The foreign guys. He says a bunch of Boeing in house programmers put out to pasture early on in the design process.

wilber1

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Posted: 11/10/19 08:11pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

There is no evidence the programming was anything other than what Boeing specified. It wasn't the programers who allowed the use of a single AOA vane without a warning system to advise pilots of a failure in a system they weren't even told was there.

I'm a retired pilot with type ratings on several Boeings and all I can say about this situation is that it is very disappointing.

* This post was last edited 11/10/19 09:21pm by wilber1 *   View edit history


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sayoung

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Posted: 11/10/19 09:28pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Ok, I just fly old Cessna's & an Aerocomander every now & then , so have had a question about flying the " big iron ". In the training for planes such as 737 is it taught that when everything is going bad is to turn the automation systems off & fly the plane . Would turning off the auto-pilot/auto trim early in the problem have helped?. I understand how fast things were happening in those 2 cockpits and I would not have come close to doing as well as these crews did.

* This post was edited 11/11/19 05:23am by an administrator/moderator *

wilber1

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Posted: 11/10/19 09:41pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

MCAS works when the aircraft is being flown manually so the electric stabilizer trim would have to be deactivated completely. Apparently there are some differences in the way the cutout switches work on the MAX so I can’t be specific. The crews also could have done some.things differently but it seems they were dealing with a malfunction in a system they didn’t know about, or at least didn’t know enough about.

* This post was edited 11/11/19 05:23am by an administrator/moderator *

Cloud Dancer

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Posted: 11/11/19 04:34am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

wilber1 wrote:

Cloud Dancer wrote:

If it wasn't in the manuals, who and how was the emergency procedure written?
And, how would you diagnose a MCAS problem if it malfunctions and no one knows it's there? How did American Airlines and Southwest Airlines know about prior to accepting the airplane? I don't believe that any Southwest 737 MAX didn't know about the MCAS prior to flying it.


There was only an emergency checklist for a runaway stabilizer, there is no mention of an MCAS system.

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*
It's starting to sound like a "dishonest" system (the MCAS). Perhaps, it indicates that the ultimate goal is airliners without onboard human pilots. Aviators need not apply.
To me, artificial intelligence needs to be such that it can not only diagnose itself, but ALSO fix itself. I learned how to manually fly airplanes, and fly them well, even at low density flight levels, where immediate emergency descent is called for, which means the ability to take completely over from flight management systems and autopilots. "Pilot in Command" should have the same meaning. Therefore, if someone wants me to fly their airplanes, I need answers to MY questions BEFORE I fly. Obviously, I'm retired. And, the only airplane I will fly is one in which I am PIC.
I like the airplane (MAX). The MCAS needs a tuneup. And, a proper jackscew-motor power disconnect needs to be installed in a handy cockpit location, along with a handy trim switch which connects a separate power source to the jackscrew motor. Also, a jackscrew condition monitor would help, such that the pilots can know where it is, in its travel.
This way the pilots can have a practical step in the emergency trim procedure.

* This post was edited 11/11/19 08:52am by Cloud Dancer *


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wilber1

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Posted: 11/11/19 11:17am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

It seems Boeing got into trouble by installing a system which would make the MAX mimic the characteristics of older 737's to avoid a separate type rating or simulator training. The MAX is in competition with the Airbus 320 Neo which does not require either of these. The Neo is a fly by wire design with a taller landing gear that didn't require repositioning the engines. There would have been a lot of pressure for the MAX to be the same. 5000 aircraft ordered, eight crews per aircraft with a four hour simulator session per crew to familiarize them with the differences would amount to a ton of simulator time and a lot of money.

The MCAS system used in the military KC-46 uses both angle of attack sensors and can be overridden by simply pulling back on the control column, the system will also only activate once in a given situation instead of repeatedly trying to trim the stabilizer as soon as pilot inputs stop. Any of these functions in the MAX system would have likely prevented these crashes,

Cloud Dancer

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Posted: 11/11/19 12:53pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Staying on the same Type Certificate required a number of Supplemental Type Certificates (STC). So, why not another one for the ACME device that is a safety device for unjamming a jammed stab jackscrew. It's needed because with the MCAS the jackscrew will be working more hours. Oh, and BTW it also serves as a safety device in event of a runaway jackscrew. This ACME safety device is what I would want in my MAX. Southwest got their changes, I want mine.
Only two additional switches in the cockpit will be required. A quick affordable piece of equipment that could've save many humans, and a billion dollars.
Did they get rid of the old-school think tank?

wilber1

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Posted: 11/11/19 01:13pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

You could just train crews to fly the aircraft the way it is but that would cost a lot of money if you have to train all your existing B737 crews to fly the MAX as well.

All aircraft with underwing engines pitch up when power is added, some a lot more than others because the thrust vector is below the pitch axis. It is like pushing on a swing. MCAS doesn't do anything the pilots can't do themselves with the manual trim switches on the control wheels.

Cloud Dancer

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Posted: 11/12/19 08:22am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

They are experienced pilots already, they know how to fly the airplane. Some of them know the emergency procedure in question.
*
"As the Lion Air crew fought to control their diving Boeing Co. 737 Max 8, they got help from an unexpected source: an off-duty pilot who happened to be riding in the cockpit.

That extra pilot, who was seated in the cockpit jumpseat, correctly diagnosed the problem and told the crew how to disable a malfunctioning flight-control system and save the plane, according to two people familiar with Indonesia's investigation.
The next day, under command of a different crew facing what investigators said was an identical malfunction, the jetliner crashed into the Java Sea killing all 189 aboard."

I would insist on making the necessary mods in order to make THIS emergency procedure more intuitive,....easier to learn,....a no brainer. We now know the order of priorities. Total knowledge of the stab jackscrew design, and the corresponding controls thereof, should be high on the list.
I don't know what are the other "gotchas" in the 737 MAX.

Eric&Lisa

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Posted: 11/12/19 06:11pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

I have really enjoyed "Mentour Pilot" on YouTube. He is a 737 pilot who is adept at taking a rational approach to the subject. He has a number of videos talking about the 737 MAX. Here are two:

Why MAX needs MCAS!!

Five questions about the Boeing 737MAX

Boeing is getting the public black eye for MAX, but there is plenty of blame to go around the industry when the entire issue is looked at.

-Eric


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