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Open Roads Forum  >  Around the Campfire  >  General Topics

 > Boeing 737 crashes..........why ?

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JRscooby

Indepmo

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Posted: 11/04/19 03:53pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Cloud Dancer wrote:

The FAA certified the 737 MAX under whatever guidelines are set forth by the FAA. Just because the FAA allows pilots with a 737 type rating to fly the MAX does NOT mean to me that NO special training is needed in order to safely fly it. Who is responsible for hiring and training safe pilots? Whoever it is, FAA sets the guidelines.
I don't know of a single chief pilot who would allow one of their 737 pilots to fly a MAX, without giving him/her special MAX-specific training.


It is evident that Boeing had a lot of influence about the guidelines. And it is evident that some chief pilots took the word of FAA. And after the 2nd crash, most other countries banned the Max from their airspace while Boeing and FAA still wanted them to fly.

Quote:

I'm in favor of saving all the Boeing jobs. I'm in favor of the FAA receiving the funds to hire qualified people,...as many as needed in order to get the MAX flying.


All Boeing jobs? Not sure. And I sure don't think the management that made the bad decisions should stay in theirs.
And the FAA deciding the plane can fly? First problem, they said it could before. Then for the rest of the world to believe this one little piece of the mess has turned honest? Take a lot of tax on cheese.

* This post was edited 11/04/19 04:16pm by an administrator/moderator *

Cloud Dancer

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Posted: 11/05/19 10:14am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

From article in AVIAtION WEEK, just a few points:
*
Details of bilateral certification agreement. FAA did not highlight MCAS to EASA as a significant change.

Testing complete this month, certification approval in Jan, but more open-ended about training, simulators, overflights, and other regulators.

Third AoA vane sensor unlikely, but a synthetic third input likely with software changes, separating computation and monitoring.

Wise and guarded views on relationships between FAA - EASA and FAA - Boeing, grandfather rights, crew workload, pilot training and experience. (Ref to ‘average’ pilot probably for public, not certification use.)


Willie & Betty Sue
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akaPedro

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Posted: 11/07/19 06:27pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

OK....if the new engines had been mounted correctly, there would have been no need for MCAS. Can we agree on this ?

JRscooby

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Posted: 11/07/19 07:04pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

akaPedro wrote:

OK....if the new engines had been mounted correctly, there would have been no need for MCAS. Can we agree on this ?


From what I understand if the new engines had been mounted where the old ones where there would be clearance issues.
But how much can you change before it is a new design with the need to start over training and certifying safe to fly?

Cloud Dancer

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Posted: 11/07/19 08:58pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

akaPedro wrote:

OK....if the new engines had been mounted correctly, there would have been no need for MCAS. Can we agree on this ?

*
Given the limitations which the engineers faced, IMO the engines WERE mounted correctly. The problem was with the malfunctioning automatic pitch-trim system, and the absence of a system whereby a pilot could quickly take over the control of the stab trim jackscrew. The lack of proper training of the pilots also is suspected.
(This is my own conclusion)

JRscooby

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Posted: 11/08/19 04:54am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Cloud Dancer wrote:

The lack of proper training of the pilots also is suspected.
(This is my own conclusion)


Do all airline pilots lack proper training? If a airline is told by a trusted institution established just to make flying safe, "The new plane is just like the old plane" what reason do they have to take on the cost of more training?
If more training is needed when a new plane, the cost of that training must be added to the cost of plane before subtracting it from the bottom line. So if no training is needed, the plane looks cheaper to buy. So telling the airlines "Need no new training" is a benefit to Boeing by the government. Recently US got a judgement against EU/Airbus, because of the governments helping Airbus. But who died with the Airbus deal?

Cloud Dancer

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Posted: 11/08/19 08:56am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Part 135 and part 121 pilots-in-command, by regulation, receive recurrent training every 6 months. The FAA publishes the Federal Aviation Regulations / Aeronautical Information Manual. Each operator also has their own Ops Manual, but it has to be approved by the FAA. The FAA performs random Ramp Checks of base operations, aircraft and crews.
Nobody claims that the FAA is perfect. It shall be the responsibility of the Pilot-in-Command (the Captain) to........the list is long.
If the PIC does not know if they are properly trained and qualified to safely fly the airplane, IMO he/she should NOT take off.
IMO if the PIC is killed in the crash of their aircraft, who do you blame?
In the USA, you have to wait for the NTSB report. Outside the USA, I speculate, just like most other pilots.
In my case of experiencing a jammed stab in the full nose up position, I had allowed the SIC to fly the airplane while executing a precision instrument approach-to-landing. When he suddenly shouted, "there's something very wrong with the controls, it's your airplane". The reason I was able to find a way out,..... is a long story (I soloed a J-3 Cub in 1957, while still in high school). I later became an aviator and commercial pilot.
I'm a big believer in aircraft systems knowledge and training, training, training. Learning recovery from unusual attitudes (on instruments) is fun.
Yes, I believe that the pilots who lost their life in 737 MAX crashes could've used could've used MAX-specific systems knowledge AND training.
IMO this is absolutely necessary, for the purpose of making the final decision of whether you will fly the aircraft OR not.

PA12DRVR

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Posted: 11/08/19 09:29am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

"If the PIC does not know if they are properly trained and qualified to safely fly the airplane, IMO he/she should NOT take off."

I think that's the appropriate summary right there. I fly a PA-12 all the time and my buddy's PA-18 a bit during the summer months. Those two a/c are about as close to the same and as straightforward as they come, but I still (after XX years) believe it's worth it to get an hour of instruction when transitioning to the -18.


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Cloud Dancer

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Posted: 11/08/19 08:56pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-11-08/delays-in-boeing-max-return-began-with-near-crash-in-simulatorIt's a long read, Bloomberg Business report on status of 737 MAX

JRscooby

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Posted: 11/09/19 07:31am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Cloud Dancer wrote:



Yes, I believe that the pilots who lost their life in 737 MAX crashes could've used could've used MAX-specific systems knowledge AND training.
IMO this is absolutely necessary, for the purpose of making the final decision of whether you will fly the aircraft OR not.


Well in hind-site it is easy to determine the pilots could of used the training. But what I can't see is how does the pilot, who is told by "experts" It is just like the other. Your training is good. know that he needs more training before the fit hits the shan?
And I have no idea about what steps the FAA will use to determine the plane is safe. And even worse, how can FAA convince the people that must ride the plane it is safe to fly? After all, FAA said it was safe for days after the 2nd crash, while rest of world grounded the planes.

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