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Open Roads Forum  >  Tow Vehicles

 > Ford reaches tentative UAW contract.

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JIMNLIN

Oklahoma

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Posted: 11/04/19 07:42pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Jeez..... here we go again with 'nother bash the union topic. How many gets posted per year on average on forums.

One was just closed so now we have the same ol' same ol' 'nother one going with the same members making the same old tired blather about their versions of the same union...... and someone like me complaining about the complainers.
Now where's the beat the dead horse with the mighty stick picture.


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Terryallan

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Posted: 11/04/19 07:45pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

ShinerBock wrote:

Terryallan wrote:

ShinerBock wrote:

I have spoken with many people about this. Almost every one of them said that they think the UAW is getting too greedy especially asking for benefits that most others do not get or have to pay for themselves. Most also felt that this greed was a large reason why we (the taxpayers) had to bail out these companies not to long ago. All of this on top of the current corruption scandals in the UAW's top executives are not helping their cause. They may have won this battle, but it appears they are loosing the war in the eyes of most people in my region because most are starting to view them unfavorably where they didn't just a few years ago.


Ford did not take the bail out. They had already done what they had to do to avoid it. GM who went bankrupt after wards, and Chrysler who was sold to Fiat, took the bailout.

I will never forget what the Ford CEO told the Congressional committee when they ask if he would work for a dollar ay year if they gave them the money. He said "No, I'm good". GM, and Chrysler CEOs on the other hand said, YES PLEASE.


I don't think I mention Ford once in my post. Someone is a little testy. Ford was actually in good standing during this crisis for various reasons and one of them was because they were awarded the $6 billion dollar loan from the Department of Energy in September of 2009. Because of this other government loan that preserved thousands of jobs, they did not need to take part of the other bailout loan.

FORD
Loan Programs Office


Not really. It is just that the subject of the thread is Ford, and the UAW. so when you said "these companies". it appeared to include the thread subject as well.

Many people are under the mistaken idea that Ford did indeed take the bailout because they have Gov loans. However in truth nearly every large company in the US has Gov loans. It is easier to use Gov money that company capital.

Ford took many measures to cut costs, including closing many dealerships. Which in my humble opinion has hurt their sales. Several towns near us have no Ford store, but do have GM, and Fiat Chrysler stores. The nearest Ford store is more than 20 miles away. lots of people like to buy close to home, so they settle for a Chevy, or Ram instead of driving 20 + miles to buy.

* This post was edited 11/04/19 07:53pm by Terryallan *


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ShinerBock

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Posted: 11/04/19 07:47pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

JIMNLIN wrote:

Jeez..... here we go again with 'nother bash the union topic. How many gets posted per year on average on forums.

One was just closed so now we have the same ol' same ol' 'nother one going with the same members making the same old tired blather about their versions of the same union...... and someone like me complaining about the complainers.
Now where's the beat the dead horse with the mighty stick picture.


Actually, no one here is bashing union in general. We, both union and non-union members, just think a specific union(the UAW) is being greedy. Sorry if you can't handle people criticism of the UAW, but we have every right to speak our minds about the topic.


I am guessing you are getting mad because you are in a union and you don't like anyone talking bad about a union. Although, I will point out that I have worked for Cummins and how many people talk bad about them? Do I get to tell people to stop talking about them because that is a company I worked for? No. I also work for a dealer group that has dealers for several brands including Ford. Does that mean I should step in when people bash any dealer and tell them not to talk about them? No.

This is a free country and it should no be forbidden to discuss such things just because it triggers some people.

* This post was edited 11/04/19 07:59pm by ShinerBock *

ShinerBock

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Posted: 11/04/19 08:02pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Terryallan wrote:

ShinerBock wrote:

Terryallan wrote:

ShinerBock wrote:

I have spoken with many people about this. Almost every one of them said that they think the UAW is getting too greedy especially asking for benefits that most others do not get or have to pay for themselves. Most also felt that this greed was a large reason why we (the taxpayers) had to bail out these companies not to long ago. All of this on top of the current corruption scandals in the UAW's top executives are not helping their cause. They may have won this battle, but it appears they are loosing the war in the eyes of most people in my region because most are starting to view them unfavorably where they didn't just a few years ago.


Ford did not take the bail out. They had already done what they had to do to avoid it. GM who went bankrupt after wards, and Chrysler who was sold to Fiat, took the bailout.

I will never forget what the Ford CEO told the Congressional committee when they ask if he would work for a dollar ay year if they gave them the money. He said "No, I'm good". GM, and Chrysler CEOs on the other hand said, YES PLEASE.


I don't think I mention Ford once in my post. Someone is a little testy. Ford was actually in good standing during this crisis for various reasons and one of them was because they were awarded the $6 billion dollar loan from the Department of Energy in September of 2009. Because of this other government loan that preserved thousands of jobs, they did not need to take part of the other bailout loan.

FORD
Loan Programs Office


Not really. It is just that the subject of the thread is Ford, and the UAW. so when you said "these companies". it appeared to include the thread subject as well.

Many people are under the mistaken idea that Ford did indeed take the bailout because they have Gov loans. However in truth nearly every large company in the US has Gov loans. It is easier to use Gov money that company capital.

Ford took many measures to cut costs, including closing many dealerships. Which in my humble opinion has hurt their sales. Several towns near us have no Ford store, but do have GM, and Fiat Chrysler stores. The nearest Ford store is more than 20 miles away. lots of people like to buy close to home, so they settle for a Chevy, or Ram instead of driving 20 + miles to buy.


It is the opposite where I live. More Ford dealers than anything else. Also, I do believe that Ford would have taken the bailout of they knew that they were not going to receive the other loan from the Department of Energy. Alan Mulally, Ford's CEO at the time and a man who I admire, actually touches on this in one of his books.

pjgoeman

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Posted: 11/04/19 08:05pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

No one forced the auto companies to agree to these contract terms but somehow it's the greedy union's fault? Based on the multi multi million dollar salaries and bonuses paid out to executive management there's obviously plenty of money to go around and we're the knuckleheads who keep giving it to them.

delwhjr

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Posted: 11/04/19 08:19pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

colliehauler wrote:

They will just put in more automation and get rid of more people. Or start farming more parts out to suppliers. They might of won the battle and lose the war.


I have two friends that work for GM and they have been prepping for the loss of their jobs to automation for a few years. They are convinced the new contract will spell the end for them before this one expires. Luckily, the ratification bonus helps them toward their goal to be ready in time.


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ShinerBock

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Posted: 11/04/19 08:28pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

pjgoeman wrote:

No one forced the auto companies to agree to these contract terms but somehow it's the greedy union's fault? Based on the multi multi million dollar salaries and bonuses paid out to executive management there's obviously plenty of money to go around and we're the knuckleheads who keep giving it to them.


So if they don't sign the contract then what happens? Can they still make cars? Can they just hire different workers who will agree to work for the old terms. What if they are in a state that forces unions? So saying their hands aren't forced is a little farce.

In order to hire good CEO's, you have to pay them well. A good CEO will actually make the company and it's shareholders way more than what he is paid. This is the reason why they are paid like they are. For example, I save my company over $15 million a year while many of the executives above me like my direct VP saves the company way more from his ideas on improvement and efficiency. Things that many of the other workers would not even think of. These types of savings and gains more than justify our salaries and bonuses. Of course I have to continuously justify my position year over year and I can't just rest on what I did last year. The same goes for many people on the executive level that has to answer to the board.

CEO's and other executives are just like anything else. You get what you pay for in many circumstances. A good will be worth his salary and bonuses. Of course a bad one will not, but then again they will not get their bonuses either and will generally not be in their position for very long if they keep showing a loss without improvement.

Huntindog

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Posted: 11/04/19 11:33pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Shinerbock wrote:

Actually, no one here is bashing union in general.


Oh there have been a few general bashings.... I think Fish was one of the first.

I have been a Union organizer, member and Shop steward since 1994.

I can tell you from experience, that not all Unions have it as good as the UAW, or the public sector Unions. They are the most sucessful, perhaps too suscessful for their long term good, and some of them like the UAW get a lot of press.... Some public sector Unions such as teachers enjoy good press.... In spite of the built in negotiating advantage they have as public sector Unions.

Many Unions are still fighting the battle to get their members into the middle class..... Which Unions were a prime driver of creating.

Many things that we now enjoy, and think of as a normal right came about because of Unions. OSHA, 40 hour work week, vacation pay, sick pay, holiday pay, greivances for unfair discipline, etc.

These things (and more) exist now in both Union, and non Union companies because of Union efforts. The non Union companies went along and provided them or were forced to by legislation to keep up with the Union standards.

The UAW has members that often do highly specialized jobs,(skills) that will not transfer easily to another company.... And the automakers have a highly cylical business that makes obscene profits in boom times. With that much money available, thay are often able to secure contracts that are unheard of in other industries.... But they usually suffer in downturns.

As for the bad actors that pop up in Unions occasionally... Whenever there is a huge pot of money available, there will be those that cannot resist partaking in it... It is part of the human condition.
I will point out that there have been PLENTY of people in the management/company side that fall into this catagory as well.

I have worked both Union and non Union, and have seen the benefits, and downsides first hand.

I believe that Unions are necessary to balance the unfettered power that companies other wise would have.
If they were to disappear from the workplace, we would see many benefits that we take for granted disappearing as well. This would go for Union and non Union workers alike.



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Dadoffourgirls

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Posted: 11/05/19 06:13am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

I just hope that all the local UAW members now support all the Union Teachers in getting pay raises and no increase to their health care as well. The Teachers gave back and froze salaries just like the UAW members.


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SidecarFlip

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Posted: 11/05/19 06:46am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

FishOnOne wrote:

GM paved the way for this agreement and FCA will be forced to follow suit as well or the union will go on strike.

And you can put me in the category that knows unions need to go away. All unions!


Keep in mind that, other than Jeeps Wranglers, most of the FCA products are built in Mexico by non union workers and if they are unionized, the wages are a fraction of what the domestic counterparts make. FCA has the largest percentage of vehicles built outside the states of any automaker. RAM pickup trucks, Toluca, Mexico...

Consequently, if FCA don't agree to the UAW they can still build and sell vehicles.

Far as the Jeep end goes, FCA is very progressive at their Toldeo Jeep plant. They are the ONLY automaker that houses sub assembly non union suppliers on the grounds the plant occupies. I ought to know, I drive past almost every day and the sign at the main entrance lists the suppliers on premises.

Don't know if they will agree and I believe the Pugeot / FCA tentative merger has everything to do with busting the union.

I could be wrong.

Far as Toyota or Nissan building a pickup truck, I didn't mean a 1/2 ton grocery / soccer mom truck, I meant a real work truck in the 3/4 or 1 ton flavor.

They can see the profit margin, they aren't stupid.

Union legacy costs are a huge part of the equation when it comes to contract negotiations. Union negotiated pensions eat up a huge percentage of the overall profit margin for unionized automotive.


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