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 > Ford reaches tentative UAW contract.

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Terryallan

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Posted: 11/05/19 09:41am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

ShinerBock wrote:

Terryallan wrote:

ShinerBock wrote:

Terryallan wrote:

ShinerBock wrote:

Terryallan wrote:

ShinerBock wrote:

I have spoken with many people about this. Almost every one of them said that they think the UAW is getting too greedy especially asking for benefits that most others do not get or have to pay for themselves. Most also felt that this greed was a large reason why we (the taxpayers) had to bail out these companies not to long ago. All of this on top of the current corruption scandals in the UAW's top executives are not helping their cause. They may have won this battle, but it appears they are loosing the war in the eyes of most people in my region because most are starting to view them unfavorably where they didn't just a few years ago.


Ford did not take the bail out. They had already done what they had to do to avoid it. GM who went bankrupt after wards, and Chrysler who was sold to Fiat, took the bailout.

I will never forget what the Ford CEO told the Congressional committee when they ask if he would work for a dollar ay year if they gave them the money. He said "No, I'm good". GM, and Chrysler CEOs on the other hand said, YES PLEASE.


I don't think I mention Ford once in my post. Someone is a little testy. Ford was actually in good standing during this crisis for various reasons and one of them was because they were awarded the $6 billion dollar loan from the Department of Energy in September of 2009. Because of this other government loan that preserved thousands of jobs, they did not need to take part of the other bailout loan.

FORD
Loan Programs Office


Not really. It is just that the subject of the thread is Ford, and the UAW. so when you said "these companies". it appeared to include the thread subject as well.

Many people are under the mistaken idea that Ford did indeed take the bailout because they have Gov loans. However in truth nearly every large company in the US has Gov loans. It is easier to use Gov money that company capital.

Ford took many measures to cut costs, including closing many dealerships. Which in my humble opinion has hurt their sales. Several towns near us have no Ford store, but do have GM, and Fiat Chrysler stores. The nearest Ford store is more than 20 miles away. lots of people like to buy close to home, so they settle for a Chevy, or Ram instead of driving 20 + miles to buy.


It is the opposite where I live. More Ford dealers than anything else. Also, I do believe that Ford would have taken the bailout of they knew that they were not going to receive the other loan from the Department of Energy. Alan Mulally, Ford's CEO at the time and a man who I admire, actually touches on this in one of his books.


But it worked out better for them not to. They are the only ones that can brag about not taking the bail out. and in truth. The bail out was not a real success, as many think it was. after all. GM went bankrupt AFTER the bail out, and never did pay back all the loans. As I remember they left some 25 million unpaid. plus they NEVER fulfilled their end on the agreement. They were to develop and build their own axle plant for their SUV, and cars. They did not. They did try, but couldn't do it, and came back to GETRAG begging to have them to build their axles again. We did. But they were not the big dog in the plant any more.

And the only thing that save Chrysler was that it was sold to Fiat. Then shortly after. Fiat put them on the market again. But couldn't find any takers, and got stuck with them.


That is not exactly how it went down with Fiat and Chrysler.

The Story Behind Chrysler And Fiat, And Why The Stock Is So Cheap

In short, the president at the time sold out Chrysler in promises of whoever buys their stock would make more efficient vehicles. Fiat was able to buy it for pennies on the dollar because of this. Chrysler was essentially sold out, unconstitutionally might I add, because of the president at the time own agenda to a company that contributed to his campaign via their PAC's.

Ford received billions of dollars in loans that same year to make more efficient vehicles. Now, if you look at which side of the isle each of these companies spend their money in lobby efforts and getting people elected, it will start to make sense as to why it all went down this way.

Now Ram and Jeep are the only two brands that are making FCA as a whole(not just FCA US) profitable. If the President at the time would have kept the shares and sold them at a higher value later on so, the people would have gotten all their money back and then some just a few short years later when Ram and Jeep were making money hand over foot.


Yep it was a bad deal all around. and to be honest. When Fiat Chrysler was put up for sale so soon after it was bought. it really kind of scared us at GETRAG. We made a lot of axles for Chrysler. But since no one wanted it. We are still making axles for Fiat Chrysler. A lot of Jeep stuff. And we were already making axles for Maserati that Chrysler owned at the time. that has fallen way off. Still make a few hundred a month. but nothing like it was. And you ought to see the tiny gearsets that go into the Fiats, and Jeeps. not sure I'd want to take them off road.

BTW. GETRAG is no more. It was bought by GKN, over taken by Melrose and is now for sale again.


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goducks10

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Posted: 11/05/19 09:44am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

ShinerBock wrote:

goducks10 wrote:

You know who loves unions? The non union workers that do the same work in the same town as union workers.
When unions leave wages drop.


A side note to this is that right to work states generally have lower cost of living and higher employment rates. It is a fact based on US data that on average non-RTW states have considerably more unions and a much higher the cost of living. A higher salary is needed to cover the higher cost of goods because the producers of those goods had to increase the salaries of their workers. It is a perpetual and never ending cycle. Another thing that increases the cost of living is taxes and regulations which most unions give to the political side that generally likes to increase these things whenever they can.

So just because the average salary is higher, does not necessarily mean they are better off when you consider all things.

Not saying that all union are bad. I am just saying that you have to take all things into account when weighing the pros and cons of it all. You can't just look at one single thing and say one is better(or worse) than the other.


Ask those non union workers if they're getting the same benefits as their union counter parts. Earning lower wages when things are cheaper is fine except when it comes time to save for retirement.

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Posted: 11/05/19 09:47am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

goducks10 wrote:

ShinerBock wrote:

goducks10 wrote:

You know who loves unions? The non union workers that do the same work in the same town as union workers.
When unions leave wages drop.


A side note to this is that right to work states generally have lower cost of living and higher employment rates. It is a fact based on US data that on average non-RTW states have considerably more unions and a much higher the cost of living. A higher salary is needed to cover the higher cost of goods because the producers of those goods had to increase the salaries of their workers. It is a perpetual and never ending cycle. Another thing that increases the cost of living is taxes and regulations which most unions give to the political side that generally likes to increase these things whenever they can.

So just because the average salary is higher, does not necessarily mean they are better off when you consider all things.

Not saying that all union are bad. I am just saying that you have to take all things into account when weighing the pros and cons of it all. You can't just look at one single thing and say one is better(or worse) than the other.


Ask those non union workers if they're getting the same benefits as their union counter parts. Earning lower wages when things are cheaper is fine except when it comes time to save for retirement.


This is true and is another aspect to look at. Unfortunately, that is data neither of us have so we cannot say for 100% certain. We can make assumptions, but nothing factual with actual numbers like you can with cost of living and earnings. Although, if you continue to stay in that higher cost of living state then your cost of living will still be higher so you will need more money to compensate. That is unless you move to a RTW-state to take advantage of lower cost due to not having heavy union presence.

* This post was edited 11/05/19 09:54am by ShinerBock *

Dadoffourgirls

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Posted: 11/05/19 10:19am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

SidecarFlip wrote:

Dadoffourgirls wrote:

I just hope that all the local UAW members now support all the Union Teachers in getting pay raises and no increase to their health care as well. The Teachers gave back and froze salaries just like the UAW members.


I disagree.

Especially here in Michigan with MTA as a negotiator in contracts. Considering the quality of students educators are turning out here, they need a pay cut not a raise.

Just voted NO on the local bond issue. They get enough of my tax money as it is. Show me you can actually educate students to become productive member of society and I'll consider compensating you accordingly.

as it stands, Michigan teachers aren't showing me anything but terrible SAT scores and a poor product.

I'd like to have had a job where I worked 1/2 the year and got paid for the entire year. Talk about cushy.


I wish you would educate yourself on education in Michigan. There are many issues within the education process. Slamming teachers shows me exactly what type of retired union person you are.

Hopefully all of those non-productive youngsters do not take advantage of the old guy in the neighborhood.


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SidecarFlip

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Posted: 11/05/19 12:14pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Dadoffourgirls wrote:

SidecarFlip wrote:

Dadoffourgirls wrote:

I just hope that all the local UAW members now support all the Union Teachers in getting pay raises and no increase to their health care as well. The Teachers gave back and froze salaries just like the UAW members.


I disagree.

Especially here in Michigan with MTA as a negotiator in contracts. Considering the quality of students educators are turning out here, they need a pay cut not a raise.

Just voted NO on the local bond issue. They get enough of my tax money as it is. Show me you can actually educate students to become productive member of society and I'll consider compensating you accordingly.

as it stands, Michigan teachers aren't showing me anything but terrible SAT scores and a poor product.

I'd like to have had a job where I worked 1/2 the year and got paid for the entire year. Talk about cushy.


I wish you would educate yourself on education in Michigan. There are many issues within the education process. Slamming teachers shows me exactly what type of retired union person you are.

Hopefully all of those non-productive youngsters do not take advantage of the old guy in the neighborhood.


I have more than once. You see almost my entire family on my wife's side are all Michigan educators, except her 2 brothers who are engineers, one at GM, one a Fords. and the rest, I'm surprised they can tie their shoes and all have their Masters and Doctorates in various disciplines.

Far as neighborhood goes, I don't. I'm a farmer and live in a very rural setting. nearest neighbor is 3/4 mile away. I don't worry about kids anyway. My flagpole out front flies an American Flag, under that is an NRA flag and below that is a GOA flag. You'd have to pretty dumb or high not to know better than mess around here. I think the big black Chow in the yard is a good deterrent as well.

I live just close enough to Toledo and Detroit to get a whiff of their stink when the wind blows right.

They say you can always tell an autoworker, retired or working, but the number of toys in their yard. Guess I fit right in. Lots of toys here.


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Posted: 11/05/19 12:50pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

You had me going for minute with GOA: I was trying figure out what the Portuguese had to this with topic until I remembered Larry...


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TurnThePage

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Posted: 11/05/19 03:19pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

ShinerBock wrote:

goducks10 wrote:

You know who loves unions? The non union workers that do the same work in the same town as union workers.
When unions leave wages drop.


A side note to this is that right to work states generally have lower cost of living and higher employment rates. It is a fact based on US data that on average non-RTW states have considerably more unions and a much higher the cost of living. A higher salary is needed to cover the higher cost of goods because the producers of those goods had to increase the salaries of their workers. It is a perpetual and never ending cycle. Another thing that increases the cost of living is taxes and regulations which most unions give to the political side that generally likes to increase these things whenever they can.

So just because the average salary is higher, does not necessarily mean they are better off when you consider all things.

Not saying that all union are bad. I am just saying that you have to take all things into account when weighing the pros and cons of it all. You can't just look at one single thing and say one is better(or worse) than the other.
I live in a RTW state but work in a unionized state. Yep, it costs more to live over there, but virtually every metric is better. Especially for low income groups, single women, non-whites, etc. Better education, better health care, higher income, better outcomes in general. By far in most cases. Of course, I was forced to join a union against my will and still feel a little bent about it, but my future is far better off than it would have been if I'd not crossed the border to work. It's actually VERY common around here.


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Huntindog

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Posted: 11/05/19 03:26pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

ShinerBock wrote:

Huntindog wrote:

Shinerbock wrote:

Actually, no one here is bashing union in general.


Oh there have been a few general bashings.... I think Fish was one of the first.

I have been a Union organizer, member and Shop steward since 1994.

I can tell you from experience, that not all Unions have it as good as the UAW, or the public sector Unions. They are the most sucessful, perhaps too suscessful for their long term good, and some of them like the UAW get a lot of press.... Some public sector Unions such as teachers enjoy good press.... In spite of the built in negotiating advantage they have as public sector Unions.

Many Unions are still fighting the battle to get their members into the middle class..... Which Unions were a prime driver of creating.

Many things that we now enjoy, and think of as a normal right came about because of Unions. OSHA, 40 hour work week, vacation pay, sick pay, holiday pay, greivances for unfair discipline, etc.

These things (and more) exist now in both Union, and non Union companies because of Union efforts. The non Union companies went along and provided them or were forced to by legislation to keep up with the Union standards.

The UAW has members that often do highly specialized jobs,(skills) that will not transfer easily to another company.... And the automakers have a highly cylical business that makes obscene profits in boom times. With that much money available, thay are often able to secure contracts that are unheard of in other industries.... But they usually suffer in downturns.

As for the bad actors that pop up in Unions occasionally... Whenever there is a huge pot of money available, there will be those that cannot resist partaking in it... It is part of the human condition.
I will point out that there have been PLENTY of people in the management/company side that fall into this catagory as well.

I have worked both Union and non Union, and have seen the benefits, and downsides first hand.

I believe that Unions are necessary to balance the unfettered power that companies other wise would have.
If they were to disappear from the workplace, we would see many benefits that we take for granted disappearing as well. This would go for Union and non Union workers alike.


This is false. I was fed this propaganda too until I researched it myself.

The 40 hour work week was created by Henry Ford long before his plants were unionized because he thought that his employees would buy more Model T's if they had time off to enjoy them. Henry Ford, along with Jewish(Saturday) and Christian(Sunday) religion, also played a big role in the two day weekend long before his factories were unionized.

Paid sick leave was first created in foreign countries, and is still not a law in the US even though most companies, union and non-union, give it to their employees.

Paid vacation came about because employers in the early 1900's saw that their employees having time off made them more productive.

Holiday pay is not required in the US and is up the the employers discretion. Many companies offer it for the same reason they offer vacation and sick pay, to attract workers. There have been recordings of Holiday pay in US companies long before unions were even established here.

There are many other things that unions take credit for, but had little or no impact on their implementation. Many of these things just took a natural progression as communication became more instant and the traveling time between places decreased. People were able to be more selective on where they wanted to work, and employers had to find way to entice the best employees.


Ummm, here is some more for you to research on.
Henry Ford was late to the party. He did what businesses are still doing today; He saw which way the wind was blowing and decided to jump in and look like a hero.

History of the 40 hour work week

Pay attention to the timeline:
1867 and Mayday.
1926 and Ford goes to 40 hour week


* This post was edited 11/05/19 03:45pm by Huntindog *


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ShinerBock

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Posted: 11/05/19 03:37pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Huntindog wrote:

ShinerBock wrote:

Huntindog wrote:

Shinerbock wrote:

Actually, no one here is bashing union in general.


Oh there have been a few general bashings.... I think Fish was one of the first.

I have been a Union organizer, member and Shop steward since 1994.

I can tell you from experience, that not all Unions have it as good as the UAW, or the public sector Unions. They are the most sucessful, perhaps too suscessful for their long term good, and some of them like the UAW get a lot of press.... Some public sector Unions such as teachers enjoy good press.... In spite of the built in negotiating advantage they have as public sector Unions.

Many Unions are still fighting the battle to get their members into the middle class..... Which Unions were a prime driver of creating.

Many things that we now enjoy, and think of as a normal right came about because of Unions. OSHA, 40 hour work week, vacation pay, sick pay, holiday pay, greivances for unfair discipline, etc.

These things (and more) exist now in both Union, and non Union companies because of Union efforts. The non Union companies went along and provided them or were forced to by legislation to keep up with the Union standards.

The UAW has members that often do highly specialized jobs,(skills) that will not transfer easily to another company.... And the automakers have a highly cylical business that makes obscene profits in boom times. With that much money available, thay are often able to secure contracts that are unheard of in other industries.... But they usually suffer in downturns.

As for the bad actors that pop up in Unions occasionally... Whenever there is a huge pot of money available, there will be those that cannot resist partaking in it... It is part of the human condition.
I will point out that there have been PLENTY of people in the management/company side that fall into this catagory as well.

I have worked both Union and non Union, and have seen the benefits, and downsides first hand.

I believe that Unions are necessary to balance the unfettered power that companies other wise would have.
If they were to disappear from the workplace, we would see many benefits that we take for granted disappearing as well. This would go for Union and non Union workers alike.


This is false. I was fed this propaganda too until I researched it myself.

The 40 hour work week was created by Henry Ford long before his plants were unionized because he thought that his employees would buy more Model T's if they had time off to enjoy them. Henry Ford, along with Jewish(Saturday) and Christian(Sunday) religion, also played a big role in the two day weekend long before his factories were unionized.

Paid sick leave was first created in foreign countries, and is still not a law in the US even though most companies, union and non-union, give it to their employees.

Paid vacation came about because employers in the early 1900's saw that their employees having time off made them more productive.

Holiday pay is not required in the US and is up the the employers discretion. Many companies offer it for the same reason they offer vacation and sick pay, to attract workers. There have been recordings of Holiday pay in US companies long before unions were even established here.

There are many other things that unions take credit for, but had little or no impact on their implementation. Many of these things just took a natural progression as communication became more instant and the traveling time between places decreased. People were able to be more selective on where they wanted to work, and employers had to find way to entice the best employees.


Ummm, here is some more for you to research on.
Henry Ford was late to the party. He did what businesses are still doing today; He saw which way the wind was blowing and decided to jump in and look like a hero.

History of the 40 hour work week


And what I stated was true. If you look at the link you posted, all they talked about hours per day worked and it was common to work six or seven days a week so that would 48 or 56 hours a week working eight hours a day. Henry Ford was the first implement a five day 40 hour work week(as it stated in your link) without any of his factories being unionized. If you click on the "statement" link in the article you posted, it will take you to this article which is exactly what I stated.

The 40-Hour Revolution

goducks10

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Posted: 11/05/19 05:38pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Fact of the matter is, apples to apples, same job, same state, a union person is usually better off.

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