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Open Roads Forum  >  Tech Issues

 > Honda 2000I versus Cpe 2000 inverter

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MrWizard

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Posted: 11/27/19 01:43am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

I've got pix of the numbers, I did have the RV plugged into the Honda, for whole house, but the charger/ converter was the only thing in use , even the mw circuit breaker was turned off, I don't know if it is, all the extra wire in the walls , or the difference in generators inverters and voltage , or even the set output voltage of the converter ,
A number of factors involved here


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BFL13

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Posted: 11/27/19 08:01am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Yes, as Mr Wiz suggests, it is a worry that the numbers are not consistent. Perhaps one of the meters is off from some factor interfering with the test.

IMO the result that shows the Honda running at 1900VA should be put on hold until it can be confirmed.

Here are figures for a different inverter gen from the Honda.

Kill-A-Watt figures running the B&S P2200 (rated 1700VA running) with the 75 amper.

Trimetric showed 75 amp draw and 14.3v battery. Using 85% efficiency, that means output watts of 1073w, input 1262w, and using 0.73PF, that makes VA 1728. The actual Kill-A-Watt got:

118v, 14.49a, 1247w, 1715VA, 0.73PF --compare with Honda 3000's - battery 14.08v at 75a output:

124v, 13.64a, 1241w, 1693VA, 0.73PF.

More P2200 readings that show V vs A at different loads with rising batt v.

117/14.75, 116.8/15.01 (Kill-A-Watt limit is 15 so turned it off!)

Not much difference there Honda vs P2200 same 75 amper, but interesting how the VA with the higher input voltage makes for a lower input amps. The gens are rated in VA and the rated amps assume 120v--eg, Honda 13.3a at 120v = 1596 (1600 rated)

* This post was edited 11/27/19 10:06am by BFL13 *


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MrWizard

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Posted: 11/27/19 09:25am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

IIRC
there is a slight difference in our converters
You snipped a resistor ? In yours and it is always at your set voltage point

While mine has not been snipped, and runs approximately 1v higher than set point for the first ten minutes after powered on

BFL13

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Posted: 11/27/19 10:05am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

MrWizard wrote:

IIRC
there is a slight difference in our converters
You snipped a resistor ? In yours and it is always at your set voltage point

While mine has not been snipped, and runs approximately 1v higher than set point for the first ten minutes after powered on


I don't think that matters here, not sure. It is battery voltage that counts, not the converter's voltage setting, so in the first minutes of a recharge battery will not get very far along either way.

With it OEM, to get 14.5v Vabs, you can set 14.5 first, then after it drops to 13.5 crank it back up to 14.5. With R1 snipped, you just set 14.5 and it stays there. It goes up to 15.5 so you could set it to that instead, and after it drops it will be 14.5 and stay there.

Apparently that feature was at the request of car dealer showroom guys. Don't know why they wanted that. Perhaps to act like alternators?

The LK models that came out later have the pot you get at through a hole in its casing. Not as handy as the external knob, but OTOH the LK goes to 16.5v instead of just 15.5. With 16+ you can meet equalizing specs for Wet batts eg.

I thinned out my notes on tests I ran, so not much data to help with this. I never got any Kill-A-Watt readings after amps tapered during Absorption and battery voltage still rising.

Battery voltage vs converter voltage has voltage drop too depending on the amps, so that could be another reason to just look at input side /gen draw for comparisons.

pinesman

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Posted: 11/27/19 11:24am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

I do not mean to hijack this thread but it does make me ask a question. I have one of the new CPE 2000 watt inverter generators. I want to upgrade my converter but I do not want the generator to rev up so loud like is being mentioned with the 75 amp converters. Right now it just idles with the stock converter. Does anyone have a suggestion on how big a converter I can get and still keep the generator quiet? Thanks.

BFL13

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Posted: 11/27/19 12:08pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

You are not likely to be able to run a 75a converter on that gen anyway. You are looking at one that draws about 1600VA at the most.

You could try known Non-PF loads (PF = 1) to see what watts you can stand to listen to, call that the VA, then you can work the math back to see what that would come to as battery voltage and amps for converter output.

Say an appliance that draws 1500w is too loud, but 1000w is ok. PF is 1, so VA is 1000 for what you can stand. PF of typical converter is 0.7, so input watts will be 700w. With typical 85% efficiency, that would be 595w output.

Say you want the batts to be at 14.8v Vabs, so 595/14.8 = 40.2 amps, so you could likely be ok with a 45 amp charger.

If you could stand the gen running at its 1600, then you could go for
1600 x 0.7 = 1120w input x 85% = 952w output/14.8 = 64.3 amps, so you could run a 60 amper instead of the 45 amper.

BUT--the other thing is how long do you have to stand the noise before the gen slows down? The 45 amper will be at its lower max noise longer than the 60 amper will be at its max noise before amps taper and noise reduces until it is the same as the 45 amper.

With a 220AH bank at 50% SOC, the 60 amper will be at max noise for about 50 minutes before amps taper, while the 45 amper will be at its lesser max noise for about 15 minutes longer, 65 minutes.

BFL13

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Posted: 11/27/19 12:32pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

EDIT--ran a test on low amp output--results after this
-----------

Trying to follow Mr Wiz's example where it says 123.3 x 2.14 = 263.9VA
and then shows 170 Watts. So that would be 0.64PF like he says.

BUT--output is 49.6w (14.56 x 3.4) so at 85% efficiency, the input would be about 58 watts for the converter.

What else is on that gets that 170 watts vs 58?
-----------------

Looks like Mr Wiz is on to something (of course!) [emoticon]

Using the 75 amper, Kill-A-Watt, and Trimetric, unplugged shore power and have only converter on the P2200. Started with about 4 amps DC load on full batts, then about 13 amps, then about 24 amps.
(P2200 unloaded--125.4 volts)

124.7v, 1.17a, 82.6w, 139VA, PF 0.57, output 54.4w
123.3v, 3.70a, 268w, 413VA, PF 0.61, output 174w
122.0v, 6.45a, 455w, 696VA, PF 0.63, output 322w

So efficiencies were: 66% (54/83), 65%, 71% (322/455)

This seems to confirm Mr Wiz's observation that the converter is more efficient at higher amps. That might be from having a sort of internal fixed load to it so as output amps are higher, the internal fixed load is less in proportion?

----------
Even so, I got 54 vs 83 (66%) where he got 58 vs 170 (34%) so it still seems he had some other draw besides the converter, but as he also said , there are many possible factors.

* This post was edited 11/27/19 02:13pm by BFL13 *

MrWizard

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Posted: 11/29/19 01:45am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

most of my testing is done in real world of full time rv living
i don't have the luxury of lab condition testing circumstances
close up the garage or storage lot and come back the next day
sometimes there might be other things using 120v
a fan ? ice-maker ? TV / PC , lots of 5v wall worts
i try to make sure other not needed or invasive power using devices are tuned off, but who knows maybe something was on, but since i flipped all those CBs, i don't know what it could be
the owner reclaimed it today, so my opportunity for more testing is gone
maybe the low versus high charge power use ratio
is because of the higher hondas higher output voltage at low power loading


here is a pix at 17.03 amps for the Honda
115.5*17.03=1996.665 VA
Just under Honda's 2000va peak reading
With PF value 0.778 that's 1530.298 watts
looks like Honda is a performance winner

[image]
[image]Click For Full-Size Image.

i've also saw 17.07 and 17.09

phone storage was full and i had to switch to my tablet

so im hunting for the various pictures
not all of them got backed up to google

* This post was last edited 12/01/19 01:36am by MrWizard *   View edit history

BFL13

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Posted: 11/29/19 08:19am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Thanks for the follow up. The key might be in this statement from a blurb about the Honda 2000i

"•Honda EU2000i has 2000W starting power, stabilizing at 1600W continuous power"

So just what does that mean? How long before it can't do 2000 anymore?

My B&S P2200 claims it can do "surge" power for starting motors--"a short burst of power needed to start electric motors". It shows overload warning flashing red immediately with the 75 amper (converter has some starting "in-rush" but I don't know if that is a "surge")at 1700VA but keeps running with the red light flashing. Add a little more load and red goes steady and shuts down the 120v output.

Reports on here that some gens with batteries in them for electric start can use that battery for an "assist" in keeping running at above running watts for a time. ISTR claims for 30 minutes with Yamaha gens?)

Still unhappy with the inconsistent V and A. I will add more on here with an edit about that

EDIT:

Say the Honda unloaded is 125v. Loading reduces that in a consistent way as seen with my Honda 3000 and P2200 as posted earlier. Here we have:

115.5/17.03
115.5/17.09
123.9/16.89
122.8/16.xx
122.9/12.3

A 17 amp load cannot be both 115.5v and 123.9v, and
A 12.3 amp load and a 16 amp load cannot be both 122.8 volts

Is there a mix-up where the 115s are with the Champ? Something else going on here?

* This post was edited 11/29/19 09:18am by BFL13 *

road-runner

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Posted: 11/29/19 10:00am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

BFL13 wrote:


"•Honda EU2000i has 2000W starting power, stabilizing at 1600W continuous power"

So just what does that mean? How long before it can't do 2000 anymore?
Based on my experience the answer is totally dependent on altitude and temperature. Near sea level when it's not horribly hot, mine will easily provide 2000 VA for the specified 30 minutes, and at least 1800 VA indefinitely. At 3500 feet on a hot day, it can't come even close to 2000 VA for more than a few seconds, and struggles to maintain 1600 VA after a few minutes. My conclusion is that the engine is just strong enough to meet the output specs in favorable atmospheric conditions. The one place where the eu2000i seems to stand out of the crowd is surviving short overloads, i.e. starting loads, lasting not more than a few seconds.


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