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Open Roads Forum  >  Tow Vehicles

 > The TFL guys bought a 7.3L

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the1adman

Tucson, Az

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Posted: 01/06/20 12:07pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Tucson is $2.95 for diesel and $2.45 for gas. When we go to Flagstaff we usually pay a little less for diesel than the gas price.

Bionic Man

Colorado

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Posted: 01/06/20 06:18pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

ShinerBock wrote:

Speaking of added cost. I think all states in the US should restructure their fuel tax system. The reason why diesel is taxed higher than gasoline is because it is mainly used on medium and heavy duty commercial truck applications where there are hardly any gas engines used. This is not the case anymore because there are more and more gas engines being used in medium duty commercial truck applications.

In my opinion, they should dye the diesel and gasoline fuel similar to how they do with non-tax diesel. Anyone using both gas or diesel for commercial use should pay the higher tax rate. They can dye this fuel a certain color similar to how the dye non-tax farm fuel red. Anyone not using gasoline or diesel for commercial purposes should not have any color and pay the same lower tax.


Not disagreeing, but the ramifications of electric vehicles not paying fuel taxes will be much more important to address in the near future.


2012 RAM 3500 Laramie Longhorn DRW CC 4x4 Max Tow, Cummins HO, 60 gallon RDS aux fuel tank, Reese 18k Elite hitch
2003 Dodge Ram 3500 QC SB 4x4 Cummins HO NV5600 with Smarty JR, Jacobs EB (sold)
2002 Gulf Stream Sea Hawk 29FRB with Honda EV6010

ShinerBock

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Posted: 01/07/20 07:18am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Bionic Man wrote:

ShinerBock wrote:

Speaking of added cost. I think all states in the US should restructure their fuel tax system. The reason why diesel is taxed higher than gasoline is because it is mainly used on medium and heavy duty commercial truck applications where there are hardly any gas engines used. This is not the case anymore because there are more and more gas engines being used in medium duty commercial truck applications.

In my opinion, they should dye the diesel and gasoline fuel similar to how they do with non-tax diesel. Anyone using both gas or diesel for commercial use should pay the higher tax rate. They can dye this fuel a certain color similar to how the dye non-tax farm fuel red. Anyone not using gasoline or diesel for commercial purposes should not have any color and pay the same lower tax.


Not disagreeing, but the ramifications of electric vehicles not paying fuel taxes will be much more important to address in the near future.


True, which is why I support registration fee based on how many miles you drive for EV's. They already record you mileage here in Texas when you have your yearly safety inspection. Or just do like what other states are doing and just adding an additional $100 to $200 to registration fees for EV's. That is more than enough to make up for it.

mhamershock

Forest Grove, OR

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Posted: 01/07/20 05:21pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

mich800 wrote:

FishOnOne wrote:

dodge guy wrote:

ib516, the early Hemis were solid and reliable. The issues arose when they went to the variable cam system around 2009 which is the Hemis in question.


I think the issues are more about the cylinder deactivation process more than the cam phaser.


Yes and GM has had similar issues. From what I have read they are sensitive to oil change intervals and quality. If you stay on top of your oil changes they don't seem to have the issues.


Don't get us Ford guys started on the VCT issues we are having with the 3.5 EB motor, and previous Ford motors. My 19 developed the cold start rattle within 25k miles of new, and still has it. Sounds like a **** diesel for 3-5 seconds at cold start. The issue goes back years, and Ford has not yet delivered an effective TSB for the Bosch-made VCTs. I change my oil every 5K with full synthetic and it made no difference. Funny thing is not all trucks end up with the rattle.

Mike

Fordlover

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Posted: 01/08/20 02:10pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

ShinerBock wrote:

Not sure why anyone cares about the 7.3L. According to the HD gas owners here, they don't need more power which is why they bought the gas engine instead of the diesel. So why would an engine with more power that you will have to pay more for matter now?


I believe it is about a 1,600 dollar premium over the 6.2 once you account for the 10 speed automatic, so a bit less than the diesel upgrade.

1,600 bucks for a bit more power and never having to buy a drop of DEF....

Personally, I've yet to run into a situation where the 6.2 wasn't up to the task, but then again I only pull ~8K and live at 140' above sea level.


2016 Skyline Layton Javelin 285BH
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ShinerBock

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Posted: 01/08/20 02:14pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Fordlover wrote:

ShinerBock wrote:

Not sure why anyone cares about the 7.3L. According to the HD gas owners here, they don't need more power which is why they bought the gas engine instead of the diesel. So why would an engine with more power that you will have to pay more for matter now?


I believe it is about a 1,600 dollar premium over the 6.2 once you account for the 10 speed automatic, so a bit less than the diesel upgrade.

1,600 bucks for a bit more power and never having to buy a drop of DEF....

Personally, I've yet to run into a situation where the 6.2 wasn't up to the task, but then again I only pull ~8K and live at 140' above sea level.



What are the cost over the life of the truck? And don't forget to add in resale/trade-in.

Groover

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Posted: 01/08/20 04:13pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

ShinerBock wrote:

Fordlover wrote:

ShinerBock wrote:

Not sure why anyone cares about the 7.3L. According to the HD gas owners here, they don't need more power which is why they bought the gas engine instead of the diesel. So why would an engine with more power that you will have to pay more for matter now?


I believe it is about a 1,600 dollar premium over the 6.2 once you account for the 10 speed automatic, so a bit less than the diesel upgrade.

1,600 bucks for a bit more power and never having to buy a drop of DEF....

Personally, I've yet to run into a situation where the 6.2 wasn't up to the task, but then again I only pull ~8K and live at 140' above sea level.



What are the cost over the life of the truck? And don't forget to add in resale/trade-in.


Or the time value of money.

spoon059

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Posted: 01/08/20 05:07pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

ShinerBock wrote:

What are the cost over the life of the truck? And don't forget to add in resale/trade-in.

There are many people that simply cannot afford the outright cost or the $800 to $900 a month payment that is required to purchase a new mid grade diesel truck. If you cannot afford to buy it new, what difference does the lifetime cost of the truck make?

If you can afford a gas engine truck that meets your performance needs, why shouldn't you buy it?

Or, if you can save $15,000 by purchasing that gas engine truck and invest that money, how much more money do you have over the lifetime of that truck?

You see, its not that cut and dry. Just because YOU can justify it doesn't mean that everyone else can or should justify it. The *only* reason I own a diesel truck right now is because I found a less than 1 year old, low mileage used diesel for about what I was expecting to pay for a new gas truck. I have ZERO need for the diesel, nor did I want to pay the premium for the diesel.

I enjoy my diesel 75% of the time, but 25% of the time it'd be nice to have a gasser again. When we go to Florida in February its nice to get 12 mpg towing for the 2500 mile trip... but when we get on the island and are driving back and forth under 25 mph for 2 weeks straight the diesel tries to force a regen and isn't happy with the driving conditions. When the wife is out running errands and I need to run some errands, I know its not great for the truck to be driven on multiple short trips.

Bottom line, a diesel is a compromise. You get great power and longevity... but you sacrifice ease of use at times. I'm very happy to see that Ford is offering a more powerful gas engine that is cheaper and doesn't have as many restrictions to operation. I'll certainly be watching it over the next couple years and see how it performs. Maybe it'll be a great option for me to consider, maybe it'll be a stinker.


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ShinerBock

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Posted: 01/09/20 07:47am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

I am not saying not to buy a gas truck or that everyone has to buy a diesel. I am just saying that some of the reasons are invalid when you do the math, are exaggerated to justify their choice, or they are applying double standards that they would not apply to any other vehicle option.

There are plenty of valid reasons for one not to buy a diesel like just not wanting a diesel, not wanting to chance it with the emissions systems, needing the cab to heat quicker because they live in colder climates, idling a lot, having a short drive, not wanting to save for another 6 months to lower their payment enough to afford the monthly payment(although you will may have a lower monthly fuel bill with the diesel depending on how much you drive), not wanting to go to a lower trim option that is $11k less in order to afford the $8k diesel option, or not wanting to buy used to get a diesel. These are all valid reasons and I am sure there are plenty more.

However, many people say that the the diesel will cost $10k more when they haven't actually put pen to paper to figure it out. The fact is that when you do that, the difference is is no where near that much in the total cost of ownership and in some cases like mine it is actually cheaper in the long run to upgrade from the 5.7L Hemi to the 6.7L Cummins than to upgrade from the 5.7L Hemi to the 6.4L Hemi. If someone is going to say this then show me the numbers because I can surely show you mine.

Then their are other reasons used like not needing more power yet getting all excited about an new gas engine that makes more power and not even mentioning how much that engine upgrade will cost upfront or in the long run like they do with a diesel. Why is the diesel option the only one people talk about recouping money, but it isn't even mentioned when upgrading gas engines.

You don't hear the half ton GM owners talk about recouping money going from the base 2.7L to the 4.6L, 5.3L or 6.2L. You don't hear Ford half ton guys talk about recouping money going from a 3.0L to a 2.7L, 3.5L or 5.0L. You never heard it from the Ram HD truck guys going from a 5.7L to 6.4L even though it cost you a lot more in the long run due to the higher maintenance cost and even more if you run the recommended 89 octane that the owners manual states. You also never hear it talked about with other options like paying $11k to go from a Tradesman to a Laramie. However, the second a person mentions a diesel then everyone talks about recouping their money. Why the double standard?

Lastly, generally the more the truck cost the more you can get off MSRP so it isn't exactly an $9-10K difference that most people quote. For example, my truck had an MSRP of $64,500 and I walked out the door paying a little over $50k. Another example is if you build a Ram 2500 online, the difference between the 6.4L and the 6.7L may be over $9k, but if you actually look at sales prices at places like Dennis Dillon or Bluebonnet where I am located, the difference is less than $8k between the exact same 2019 6.4L 2500 and 2019 6.7L 2500. If someone is paying full price on an diesel engine upgrade then they probably have very bad credit and should not be buying a truck at this price point in the first place or they are a sucker.

Again, I am not saying every needs or should want a diesel. I am just saying that some of the reasons are invalid because the person saying it has not actually put pen to paper to back up their claims, they are completely exaggerated to make their choice look better, or they apply a double standard?

* This post was last edited 01/09/20 01:56pm by ShinerBock *   View edit history

Fordlover

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Posted: 01/16/20 06:14am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

ShinerBock wrote:

Fordlover wrote:

ShinerBock wrote:

Not sure why anyone cares about the 7.3L. According to the HD gas owners here, they don't need more power which is why they bought the gas engine instead of the diesel. So why would an engine with more power that you will have to pay more for matter now?


I believe it is about a 1,600 dollar premium over the 6.2 once you account for the 10 speed automatic, so a bit less than the diesel upgrade.

1,600 bucks for a bit more power and never having to buy a drop of DEF....

Personally, I've yet to run into a situation where the 6.2 wasn't up to the task, but then again I only pull ~8K and live at 140' above sea level.



What are the cost over the life of the truck? And don't forget to add in resale/trade-in.


It's easy for me. I've got less than 10K miles on my 2018 that I've had for about 20 months, I expect to own it for 15-20 years. By the time I sell the resell value I'd get out of the diesel would be insignificant compared to the cost I'd have paid up front. I just don't drive it enough to make a diesel pay for itself in fuel savings.

For some, dare I say most, the diesel is a no brainer choice. However, for me the justification using math just doesn't work.

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