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 > My perception on real gas

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Grit dog

Black Diamond, WA

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Posted: 01/07/20 11:31am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Jayco-noslide wrote:

Pretty sure with 10% ethanol you lose 25% MPG. So it has to be something like 50 cents cheaper to break even?

No, you’re thinking of E85.


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Grit dog

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Posted: 01/07/20 12:07pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

4x4ord wrote:

Ethanol has about 2/3 the energy content of gasoline. If your comparing 93 octane ethanol free to 93 octane E10 you'd expect the ethanol free gasoline to perform about 3% better. A 3% increase in fuel economy could maybe be measured but I don't believe any of us could "feel" a 3% gain in power or fuel economy. Any actual studies that I have read have found more like a 1% reduction in fuel economy and no change in power when using E10 fuel vs ethanol free gasoline. Some engines have been measured to perform slightly better on gasoline with ethanol.

I believe the perception the op had with regard to how his engine performs on one fuel vs another is about like someone saying he finds it easier to walk up a flight of stairs when he has waffles for breakfast vs pancakes.


^This.
And while the OP's perception may be just that, as the performance difference between premium with 10% corn and premium pure gas is literally minuscule, especially in a modern vehicle that monitors and changes fuel delivery to match or meet a set of parameters in real time.
OR, a marginal quality tank of premium ethanol blend vs a good fresh tank of non eth could yield an actual performance change that is seat of the pants perceptible.
Speaking strictly stock OE run of the mill vehicles, there is no real disadvantage to using the appropriate octane E10 that I'm aware of. If the fuel is used in due time and not left to sit and absorb more moisture than pure gas.

And in certain conditions (that Turtle more than alluded to, although blew out of proportion, like his 7 second street car or whatever that other thread was about) alcohol blends or oxygenated fuel has performance advantages.
But those advantages or the corresponding disadvantage of using the same octane pure gas are small until you start really playing with afr's, boost, timing, compression, valve timing/lift/duration, etc.

I have the same "perception" as the OP about using pure gas, although I know better except in applications where the fuel may sit unused a long time. Pure gas smells better, lol (it really does smell perceptibly different) and last longer. That is it's main advantage.
But by the same token, I was pumping a tank full of 92 ethanol free into the boat last year and it didn't "smell" right. Pulled a sample later and it was a bit yellow, and I "felt" the engine wasn't quite as responsive. Didn't leave me stranded, didn't cause other issues, but I burned through it and moved on with life. Based on that, I could say pure gas is not as good.

One thing I don't do is mess around with quality of fuel. But there are times that spending more money is actually worth it and times that it's just a perceived value.

Old-Biscuit

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Posted: 01/07/20 12:21pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

I always get better milege right after wash/wax job on my truck....no data just a butt feeling


Is it time for your medication or mine?


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Grit dog

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Posted: 01/07/20 12:35pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Turtle n Peeps wrote:

Grit dog wrote:

Turtle n Peeps wrote:

Maybe I should tell my buddy to change his car from an alkie car to a gasoline car if gas makes more power.

There is a reason alkie makes more power than gasoline. Especially in supercharged cars. Alkie has O2 in it and gasoline does not.

Alkie (or gasoline with alkie) also has higher octane which does wonders with power on supercharged vehicles.


You're 100% not comparing apples to apples. While your statement is correct, for the application(s) you're referencing, you're just baiting the crowd with it in the context of the thread.....and your wrong in this context.


LOL, really?

Here's a statement I will make:

ANY engine from -1/8" cubic inch to 10,000 cubic inch + will make more power if it gets to burn more O2 AND fuel in any given time frame.

IOW's if a liquid fuel has O2 within it's structure, (like alcohol, and nitro does) it will make more power than "straight gasoline" EVERY SINGLE TIME in ANY engine.

E10 is an ox fuel. That why the EPA invented it. O2 fuels burn better and more complete.

The reason you can get more power out of E85 than E10 is the O2 content of the fuel. The same goes for "straight gasoline" and E10. You WILL get more power out of it! It's a given!

The reason you get more power out of nitromethane than ethanol is because nitro has over 50% O2 built into it, even though it has way, way, way LESS energy in it.

That is why a TFD burns 12+ gallons of nitro in 4 seconds.

And that is why you will burn about 3 to 4% more fuel on E10 than "straight gasoline" but you WILL make more power with any ox fuel.

Here is a little article about Oxygenated fuels and how they can make more power in ANY engine.


Yes really. Step back from the all knowing type attitude and read what I wrote. And read your last sentence. "Can" isn't "do." That's the difference between "may" and "shall."
I agreed with you, but I know a couple things about engines as well and I'm betting you don't have the programming for an Ecoboost and all the fuel, timing, boost, etc maps and their effects memorized. None of us do.
(Presume the OP is talking about an Ecoboost since the only other modern turbo gas pickup is the new little Chevy motor)
You're correct that you "can" make more power with oxygenated fuel in alot of applications. You will also burn a correspondingly larger amount of fuel too. And there is advantages, especially in NA applications by stuffing a little or alot more air into the cylinder via the type of fuel.
Since neither you nor I know the exact effects of all the capabilities of the eco boost components and the all the programming, it's entirely plausible that the engine ran a wee bit stronger on pure gas. Most notably, is for the same injector flow rate, the fuel system was pumping more energy ability into the cylinders (remember gasoline has more energy than ethanol for the same volume of liquid) and the turbo(s), sensors and mapping were able to handle the extra "fuel" (cause it's probably tuned with E10 in mind, less energy per volume of fuel) and as a result, light off the optimal AFR all while putting a bigger explosion on the piston.

This aint a case of your alcohol burning drag car makes more power than my Toyota Corolla because it's burning moonshine.
Its these broad brush claims though that elevate the bs status to Kayteg level, and others who can't get off dead center because they're always right.

ScottG

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Posted: 01/07/20 12:54pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

You people that have a choice are lucky.
The nearest real gas to me is more than 20 miles away.


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MFL

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Posted: 01/07/20 01:13pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Old-Biscuit wrote:

I always get better milege right after wash/wax job on my truck....no data just a butt feeling


Better mileage???IDK, however my vehicles always ride nicer, after a good detailing.

Jerry





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Posted: 01/07/20 02:11pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Old-Biscuit wrote:

I always get better milege right after wash/wax job on my truck....no data just a butt feeling

Less wind resistance and a very sensitive butt.


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Posted: 01/07/20 02:28pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Check out this guy, Project Farm. He does a lot of neat videos on testing different oils, additives, fuels, etc. and does a good job of running emperical tests to compare them.

Is Ethanol Fuel Better

In another video, he compares fuel stabilizers in ethanol containing and non ethanol fuel.

Fuel Stabilizer Comparison


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Posted: 01/07/20 02:36pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

MFL wrote:

Old-Biscuit wrote:

I always get better milege right after wash/wax job on my truck....no data just a butt feeling


Better mileage???IDK, however my vehicles always ride nicer, after a good detailing.

Jerry




My truck is always quieter after I wash and wax it...seriously.

RAS43

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Posted: 01/07/20 04:03pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

ScottG wrote:

You people that have a choice are lucky.
The nearest real gas to me is more than 20 miles away.


X2 Same for me. 40 miles round trip would be around 2 gallons of fuel. No way does pure gas even up the cost, specially since it is around .40 cents more. I'll continue to use E10 which we have had to do for about 30 years around here. And for me--without any issues in any of my equipment.

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