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BFL13

Victoria, BC

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Posted: 03/23/20 09:43am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Standing back and looking at your day, how would it be any different if you had 500AH of AGMs instead of the Li batts? (over the year since every day is different for solar etc)

Not saying this is how it is, but wondering what your own analysis is on how your Li time would compare with the same time only with AGMs instead.

Whatever the benefits of Li are, do you see much of that really? Eg, you are going to full with shallow cycles which AGMs would like too, and your charging amps are not so high, being what AGMs could take too.

Say you had 500AH of AGMs and after four years doing your routines (AGMs not getting a true full charge often enough say), they now need replacing, but the Lis are still going strong.

The Lis cost say four times what the AGMs cost, so if the Li batts last sixteen years you just break even on money? If the Lis get too low at eight years, you paid twice as much as for AGMs? Eight years seems what those boat guys got?

Perhaps Lis would better suit somebody with less solar to take advantage of operating at lower SOCs or whatever? Perhaps there is a threshold for how much solar Lis would be no better than AGMs but just cost way more?

Just thinking there must be some way to figure out whether it is worth it to go Li depending on your RV set-up and lifestyle.


1991 Oakland 28DB Class C
on Ford E350-460-7.5 Gas EFI
See Profile for House electronics set-up.

Itinerant1

Itinerant

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Posted: 03/23/20 11:14am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

First you need to figure the equivalent of power so LFP 500ah is 400ah usable. What would be AGM be 600, 700, 800ah?
Now what is the weight difference? My entire system weighs 500#, the 5 batteries weigh 143# or under 30# each. Weight as we all know is a factor, more so as a fulltimer.

During good solar days in spring, summer, fall they are fairly shallow unless there is a stretch of rain/ overcast days, but late fall to late spring they are not shallow with shorter daylight, the DOD can be 40-45% so this is where the LFP start to show their benifits, are your agms powering 80-150a loads for 10 minutes at a SOC of 30-80% before shutting down the system and having to drag the generator out? As I have stated in a year I might use a generator maybe a dozen times for a hold over charge of 2 hours (200ah/ 40%) can agms do this without shortening the life or at the very least you will have to plugin to a shoreline for equalization/ run the generator for a looooong period?

Can you start an evening at 60-80% SOC and not worry about the next day power "wants"?

This is where it becomes questionable as far as cost. My batteries cost $3,550 after the 30% tax credit 4 years ago. If building your own batteries now this can be done probably at 1/2 this price if not more. Dropins are not a good deal financially but the ease of "simplicity" comes at a cost.

This is what I found in a quick search for agm battery, just a rough cost factor but LFP are not 4x the cost.
Lifeline 6v 400ah (119#) are $690 x2 =$1380 (12v 400ah), 12v 800ah (476#) is $2760 +/- .

Weekend warriors probably not worth it unless weight is a factor and money is not.

The way I'm living/ boondocking there is no dought in my opinion LFP are better than agm. Last strech of boondocking without hook ups before having to get some work done on the 5th wheel was 1,072 days, we're on day 122 of this strech of boondocking.

* This post was edited 03/23/20 11:53am by Itinerant1 *




BFL13

Victoria, BC

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Posted: 03/23/20 02:32pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

On drop-ins looking here:

http://www.bestconverter.com/AGM-and-Lithium-Deep-Cycle-Batteries_c_283.html

See the UB12100 110AH AGM for $210, at $1.9/AH and the
Espion360 120AH Li for $1,340 at $11.17/AH

So 11.17/1.9 = 5.88 times, not 4 times more per AH. But the point is usable AH.

True about usable AH that there is more with Li, but how much more? There is a debate on what the range is for Li to do say 20-80s or to do 20-100s or whatever. A 20-80 is 60%. You can do 40-100s with AGMs.

Number of cycles at a chosen SOC range might be a better way to compare them for intended use, haven't got into that.

Noted about weights and how often needed to go to lower SOC down South in winter, and resulting gen times as a factor.

More people with stakes in Li for RVs should provide their thoughts as an aid to others who are considering Li.......

Housted

Los Angeles, CA

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Posted: 03/23/20 04:33pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

In January of this year we went from 420 AHr of AGM to 300 AHr of LI.
Changed nothing else...Same solar (1050 watts) Same solar controller (80 Amp mppt).
Biggest difference are:
1. saved 170# of weight
2. voltage drop througout discaherge is much more level and higher.
3. Had to re-program the solar controller for LI
4. Now turn off the converter at home and let the solar do all the maintain.

I went with BattleBorn after seeing some youtube videos of their manufacturing processes and seeing one of their batteries disassembeled.

Based on my experience so far I am not sorry for the change [emoticon]

Housted


2015 Dodge 3500 Laramie 6.7 CTD Tow Rig Integrated ball with Andersen Ultimate 5th Wheel hitch
2011 Arctic Fox 29-5T 5th - 4 Pt Leveling, Disk Brakes, 1050 W Solar,
300 Amps of LiFePO4,3000 Watt Inverter
  • pic
    Too many mods to Truck and trailer to list.


  • MEXICOWANDERER

    las peñas, michoacan, mexico

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    Posted: 03/23/20 05:25pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

    Some people buy 150K cars. Do they get to their destination faster?

    But the real answer lies in the future. Fractions of pennies per kWh delivered during their life span.

    Itinerant1

    Itinerant

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    Posted: 03/24/20 09:06am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

    BFL13 wrote:


    See the UB12100 110AH AGM for $210, at $1.9/AH and the
    Espion360 120AH Li for $1,340 at $11.17/AH

    So 11.17/1.9 = 5.88 times, not 4 times more per AH. But the point is usable AH.


    Now let's put it in perspective some.

    I'm going to use the info you posted for figuring #s but there are cheaper batteries to be had for this discussion.

    I got my AGM info here for life cycle count, please correct me if wrong.
    https://www.solar-electric.com/learning-center/deep-cycle-battery-faq.html/

    "If"
    AGM 110ah @ $210.00
    500 cycles @ 80% DOD = 44,000ah, .004 cent per ah.
    1000 cycles @ 50% DOD = 55,000ah, .003 cent per ah.

    "If"
    LFP 120ah @ $1,340
    2,000 cycles @ 80% DOD = 192,000ah, .006 cent per ah.
    3,000 cycles @ 70% DOD = 288,000ah, .004 cent per ah.

    But now using 80% you need to replace the battery 4.36x ($915.60) or 50% compared to lfp 70% you'll need replacing 5.26x ($1,098.30). I'm sure during the time that AGM batteries are being replaced inflation might effect the price.

    Now do you see the LFP is not 4x or 5x as much?

    BFL13

    Victoria, BC

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    Joined: 02/15/2006

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    Posted: 03/24/20 09:41am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

    "Number of cycles at a chosen SOC range might be a better way to compare them for intended use, haven't got into that"

    Glad to see some math on that! Your RVer would need to estimate how many cycles he is likely to use over the expected years as one of his planning factors.

    One of the Li brands said they use 70% loss of capacity for its cycle count. ISTR some AGMs or Wets use 50% loss for cycle count. So that would make the Li even better using 70 for both.

    This is about building a set of factors to consider in the Li decision, rather than just going with an expensive fashion. Some good factors raised so far. Who's got some more?

    Mobilesport

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    Posted: 03/25/20 06:22pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

    BFL wrote
    "This is about building a set of factors to consider in the Li decision, rather than just going with an expensive fashion. Some good factors raised so far. Who's got some more?"

    The thing that got me to buy Li was when I learned how fast I could charge the lifepo4 , fast charging is a really big deal to me because since I'm able to charge the battery so fast I can get by with a single $850 100 ah battery but keep in mind I use a generator and some people don't like generators.

    The single 100ah Lifepo4 gives me reliable power when boondocking because even if I ever did get low on soc I fire up my genset and battery charger and in a very short time I can get the soc up no matter what the weather conditions are like and even at night time
    .
    This system allows me to have a very simple system with hardly any wires or components at all and also no solar panels

    Imo if your boondocking with a generator lifepo4 is definitely the way to go or you'll end up buying multiple lead acid batteries over the years and end up paying more then the li battery.

    If i had access to shore power I'd probably stick with lead acids for economical reasons , charging them correctly and getting there full life span.

    Solar panels and AGM or solar panels with li ?? I have no clue but it looks like Iternerant1 is showing us some good info.
    I'd be curious if there is some sort of fast charge advantage when using solar panels and li????

    The other features of the Li didn't impress me much.
    Lighter weight ?? It's not like I'm going to carry them around , the vehicle would carry the weight, I prefer lighter weight but not if I have to pay for it.

    Better performance when running high amp appliances??
    That didn't impress me much because I don't believe in running high amp appliances from batteries, I use the genset for that and save my battery soc.

    Another thing I just thought about is ,, personally I don't charge from alternator/Invertor/charger but if somebody does the fast charging from li may be a huge help on keeping fuel costs down .

    * This post was edited 03/25/20 06:32pm by Mobilesport *

    Mobilesport

    Iowa

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    Posted: 03/25/20 06:41pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

    Housted wrote:

    In January of this year we went from 420 AHr of AGM to 300 AHr of LI.
    Changed nothing else...Same solar (1050 watts) Same solar controller (80 Amp mppt).
    Biggest difference are:
    1. saved 170# of weight
    2. voltage drop througout discaherge is much more level and higher.
    3. Had to re-program the solar controller for LI
    4. Now turn off the converter at home and let the solar do all the maintain.

    I went with BattleBorn after seeing some youtube videos of their manufacturing processes and seeing one of their batteries disassembeled.

    Based on my experience so far I am not sorry for the change [emoticon]

    Housted


    5. Your bank account is $2,550 lighter

    3 tons

    NV.

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    Posted: 03/25/20 07:12pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

    Mobilesport wrote:

    Housted wrote:

    In January of this year we went from 420 AHr of AGM to 300 AHr of LI.
    Changed nothing else...Same solar (1050 watts) Same solar controller (80 Amp mppt).
    Biggest difference are:
    1. saved 170# of weight
    2. voltage drop througout discaherge is much more level and higher.
    3. Had to re-program the solar controller for LI
    4. Now turn off the converter at home and let the solar do all the maintain.

    I went with BattleBorn after seeing some youtube videos of their manufacturing processes and seeing one of their batteries disassembeled.

    Based on my experience so far I am not sorry for the change [emoticon]

    Housted


    5. Your bank account is $2,550 lighter


    Prices have come significantly down...With a little shopping (and applying a discount) got my 200amp/hr drop in, fused cylindrical cell with BMS for about $1,400...

    So far I’ve been managing the charging just fine using the tried but true PD 9245 with charge wizard (in boost mode), or the 440w of solar... Recharges uber fast from either source, though I have no need whatsoever to exploit the full 100% SOC parameter ...

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