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 > If I went to a Progressive Dynamics Converter.......

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Vintage465

Prunedale CA.

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Posted: 03/13/20 07:12pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

RLS7201 wrote:

cavie wrote:

landyacht318 wrote:

If one wants to use thicker cables than will fit in the cable receptacles, there are adapters available, or one can simply destrand at the connection until it fits. It's not going to cause any measurable voltage drop or excessive heating destranding a 0 gauge cable to 4 awg at the connection.


Never, Ever destrand a connection for any reason!!![emoticon]


Why?

Richard


I don't think I'd de-strand to make a larger conductor fit. But there is quite a voltage drop with 6 and 8 gauge conductor. I was losing 1/2 volt of valuable charging availability using from my solar using 24-ish feet of 8 gauge. If I just installed and used the existing 8 gauge, I'd be losing better than a full volt. I don't plan on spending $250.00 on a converter and getting $150.00 worth of charging out of it. It wouldn't be that hard to run a couple #2 conductors(1 pos, 1 neg) and the cost would be around $100.00 plus lugs at the end where the converter goes. I'd reduce down to what ever the converter will receive at that point and go in. I'd be right at 14.1v at the batteries. I could live with that.


V-465
2013 GMC 2500HD Duramax Denali. 2015 CreekSide 20fq w/450 watts solar and 465 amp/hour of batteries. Retiring in 2021, then look-out road, here we come!

landyacht318

Near a large body of salty water

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Posted: 03/13/20 08:14pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

The idea of destranding is not really palatable to me either, but when one can only fit 4AWG wire in the receptacle, and one would much prefer 2awg or thicker, I can't see any issues doing so as long as raw stranding cannot touch anything grounded. ie common sense.

I regularly stuff 8awg wire into 45 amp anderson powerpole contacts, which are supposed to fit 10AWG and no thicker. I have to destrand for them to crimp properly, and I have to reduce insulation thickness in order to seat contact within housing fully. But the 8awg powerpole always outperforms the 10AWG, and the connection stays cooler on the 8awg compared to the 10awg powerpole when being asked to pass the same amperage, for may years now without any issue.

But would love to be given an actual reason rather than an Angry emoji by a self proclaimed master electrician.

Its not like I recommended destranding to below the wire's ampacity. It would be criminal of a converter supplier to have a the DC output outlet size less than the amperage capability of the charging source.

Crushing stranded wire under a screw is hardly an ideal connection anyway. I like the Idea of ferrules, but only if they can match the bottom shape of stranded wire's receptacle.

I had a 100 amp powermax apart, and instead of the aluminum set screw wire retainers, could easily attach thick walled ring terminals right to the circuit board and bypass the whole crush wire under set screw connection, and gain way more reliability and have less electrical resistance and use 0000 if I really needed to.

I've not opened A PD converter, but the Powermax there are two large wide contact points atop and underneath the circuit board's DC outputs. A ~1/4 thick steel bolt and nut simply secures the Aluminum wire set screw retainer to the top of the circuit board. Any electrons passing from, the bottom portion of the circuit board contact is passing through the steel bolt to the top nut and washer then to the aluminum wire retainer then to the wire. I imagine one could attach two ring terminals, one top and bottom sandwiching the circuit board on both the + and the -, and greatly reduce resistance and add adding reliability.

I found the aluminum wire receptacle was not perfectly flat and hardly touching the full area of the circuit board provided for it, and remedied that.
Depends on the aluminum alloy, but in general it is only 60% as conductive as copper.

The voltage drop suffered by too thin of wiring will begin to abate once amperage begins to taper, and while 14.1v might get to battery passing 60 amps over X lenght of X AWG, at 2 amps close to 14.4v should be getting there. Sure its slower to attain the same state of charge as thicker wire....
Is time an issue in the specific application?

The PD is supposed to hold absorption for 4 hours before reverting to lesser voltages when charging a depleted battery, and all one has to do is press the wizard's button once for 4 more hours. hold it a bt longer to induce 13.8 and a bit longer than that for 13.2v. Very easy.

If one has limited periods of time to recharge then minimizing voltage drop converter to battery is wise, along with a source capable of achieving absorption voltage quickly and maintaining absorption voltage that whole time, as well as a battery or enough battery capacity that is not going to have a tantrum if charged repeatedly at high rates with such a high amp charging source over short fat copper and quality terminations.

My adjustable voltage power supply, when I want absorption voltage attained as fast as possible at the battery terminals, I crank voltage higher than 14.7v unloaded, when I first hook it up, but if I walk away at some point it will exceed 14.7v and needs to be lowered as amperage tapers and voltage drop decreases.
There are better solutions, but this one an easy flick of the wrist rather than hooking up the voltage sense lines, or upgrading wire AWG, or shortening the charging path to the battery.

So the adjustable Voltage powersupply/converters have that extra advantage as well. Just crank it a bit higher to account for voltage drop on inadequate wiring, up until one achieves absorption voltage at battery terminals, rather than at converter output terminals. An audible high voltage alarm would likely be wise if one is forgetful, but the forgetful are likely not requiring fast as possible recharging in the first place, or if on the generator, highly unlikely to be forgetful.

Also keep in mind all the recommended battery charging voltages are at 77f/25C. how much of the country is experiencing those types of temperatures this time of year?

how hot will your battery get when high rate charging? Highly variable but a valid concern. Got a batt temp sensor? Does your charging source?

I have started well below 77 f and extremely high rate recharging have exceeded that temperature not too long after reaching absorption voltage at battery terminals, and then dial the voltage down. If I don't then it keeps climbing, exponentially faster. I've also started charging mid/high 40f well depleted battery temperature, and been below 60f when I reach 14.7v, but push it upto 15.1v at battery terminal and higher at source's output, then lower it as temperature dictates.

Vintage465

Prunedale CA.

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Posted: 03/13/20 08:42pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

landyacht318 wrote:

The idea of destranding is not really palatable to me either, but when one can only fit 4AWG wire in the receptacle, and one would much prefer 2awg or thicker, I can't see any issues doing so as long as raw stranding cannot touch anything grounded. ie common sense.

I regularly stuff 8awg wire into 45 amp anderson powerpole contacts, which are supposed to fit 10AWG and no thicker. I have to destrand for them to crimp properly, and I have to reduce insulation thickness in order to seat contact within housing fully. But the 8awg powerpole always outperforms the 10AWG, and the connection stays cooler on the 8awg compared to the 10awg powerpole when being asked to pass the same amperage, for may years now without any issue.

But would love to be given an actual reason rather than an Angry emoji by a self proclaimed master electrician.

Its not like I recommended destranding to below the wire's ampacity. It would be criminal of a converter supplier to have a the DC output outlet size less than the amperage capability of the charging source.

Crushing stranded wire under a screw is hardly an ideal connection anyway. I like the Idea of ferrules, but only if they can match the bottom shape of stranded wire's receptacle.

I had a 100 amp powermax apart, and instead of the aluminum set screw wire retainers, could easily attach thick walled ring terminals right to the circuit board and bypass the whole crush wire under set screw connection, and gain way more reliability and have less electrical resistance and use 0000 if I really needed to.

I've not opened A PD converter, but the Powermax there are two large wide contact points atop and underneath the circuit board's DC outputs. A ~1/4 thick steel bolt and nut simply secures the Aluminum wire set screw retainer to the top of the circuit board. Any electrons passing from, the bottom portion of the circuit board contact is passing through the steel bolt to the top nut and washer then to the aluminum wire retainer then to the wire. I imagine one could attach two ring terminals, one top and bottom sandwiching the circuit board on both the + and the -, and greatly reduce resistance and add adding reliability.

I found the aluminum wire receptacle was not perfectly flat and hardly touching the full area of the circuit board provided for it, and remedied that.
Depends on the aluminum alloy, but in general it is only 60% as conductive as copper.

The voltage drop suffered by too thin of wiring will begin to abate once amperage begins to taper, and while 14.1v might get to battery passing 60 amps over X lenght of X AWG, at 2 amps close to 14.4v should be getting there. Sure its slower to attain the same state of charge as thicker wire....
Is time an issue in the specific application?

The PD is supposed to hold absorption for 4 hours before reverting to lesser voltages when charging a depleted battery, and all one has to do is press the wizard's button once for 4 more hours. hold it a bt longer to induce 13.8 and a bit longer than that for 13.2v. Very easy.

If one has limited periods of time to recharge then minimizing voltage drop converter to battery is wise, along with a source capable of achieving absorption voltage quickly and maintaining absorption voltage that whole time, as well as a battery or enough battery capacity that is not going to have a tantrum if charged repeatedly at high rates with such a high amp charging source over short fat copper and quality terminations.

My adjustable voltage power supply, when I want absorption voltage attained as fast as possible at the battery terminals, I crank voltage higher than 14.7v unloaded, when I first hook it up, but if I walk away at some point it will exceed 14.7v and needs to be lowered as amperage tapers and voltage drop decreases.
There are better solutions, but this one an easy flick of the wrist rather than hooking up the voltage sense lines, or upgrading wire AWG, or shortening the charging path to the battery.

So the adjustable Voltage powersupply/converters have that extra advantage as well. Just crank it a bit higher to account for voltage drop on inadequate wiring, up until one achieves absorption voltage at battery terminals, rather than at converter output terminals. An audible high voltage alarm would likely be wise if one is forgetful, but the forgetful are likely not requiring fast as possible recharging in the first place, or if on the generator, highly unlikely to be forgetful.

Also keep in mind all the recommended battery charging voltages are at 77f/25C. how much of the country is experiencing those types of temperatures this time of year?

how hot will your battery get when high rate charging? Highly variable but a valid concern. Got a batt temp sensor? Does your charging source?

I have started well below 77 f and extremely high rate recharging have exceeded that temperature not too long after reaching absorption voltage at battery terminals, and then dial the voltage down. If I don't then it keeps climbing, exponentially faster. I've also started charging mid/high 40f well depleted battery temperature, and been below 60f when I reach 14.7v, but push it upto 15.1v at battery terminal and higher at source's output, then lower it as temperature dictates.


That's a great bunch of info! I saw these swage connections to press on to the end of a conductor that could simplify and tidy up a connection. Seemed like it had a suitable curve to one side to keep a solid connection. My main time factor in charging is running a generator........I hate running generators. I will never be concerned about being plugged in and a time frame. This whole thread is in preparation for a day that my batteries are at 70%, there is a lot of cloud cover, I'm out in the boon docks, I don't want to, or can't leave and I want my batteries back up to 100%, running the generator as little as possible, because remember, I hate generators. But I want to be ready for what ever comes up, cause I love boon docking.

time2roll

Southern California

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Posted: 03/13/20 09:15pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

If it was your main charging I might be a bit more concerned but you mention solar should do most of the heavy lifting. If plugged in you have tons of time so no worries there either. OK on Generator you might lose 10 amps the first hour so you might have to extend the run time 15 minutes. Would seem to be OK to me for infrequent use.


2001 F150 SuperCrew
2006 Keystone Springdale 249FWBHLS
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landyacht318

Near a large body of salty water

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Posted: 03/13/20 09:27pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

I hate generators enough that I don't have one, but my rig is just a DIY class B and built around my specific needs and if I wanted/needed one I would have to device some new way of carrying it, so I'd rather not need it.

Reaching Absorption at the battery terminals ASAP, is how fastest possible recharging is accomplished.

The battery acceptance ability itself plays a huge part in this, and the health of the battery(s) is a big part of how much amperage it takes to instantly reach absorption voltage, and for how long it can accept high amperage while it tapers towards full.
Health of the battery is directly related to how often it has been brought back to 100% state of charge, however quickly.

Generator charging, Max SOC% reached in minimum time is about a high amp charging source which can quickly bring the battery to its temperature compensated absorption voltage. I call it quench charging, and My Specific 103AH AGM-31 battery seems to love it.

Its only a few months old, but 134 amps was recently not enough to instantly bring it to 14.7v from ~ 40% state of charge, and I tripped a circuit breaker and slightly melted the head of a 12 awg 25' extension cord in the process. I had to settle for a 'peasly' 94 amps afterwards which then took a few more minutes before hitting 14.7 at which point amps tapered, and pretty quickly tapered.

I'll be adding a second separately regulated alternator( i use a manual adjustable external voltage regulators in the not too distant future, its the only way I will be able to establish what 'Quench amperage' is on this battery as a 94 and a 40 amp charging sources in parallel, are not enough.

A well depleted 18Ah chinese AGM battery(UPG UB`12180) spiked at 38.3 amps and 5 seconds later was accepting 32 amps@14.7v and 5 minutes later 25 amps.

One of the boat guys found that charging an AGM to full, with huge amperage sources only cut 12 or 20 minutes off the total ~5.5 hour time to reach true 100% SOC, but huge recharging amperages for shorter periods were able to achieve much higher states of charge, and its always better to begin the next discharge from as high a state of charge as possible. If achieved early in the day, and if one has solar to finish off the process, can equate to happy long lived daily deep cycling lead acid batteries.

https://marinehowto.com/how-fast-can-an-agm-battery-be-charged/

I don't know the current Powermax adjustable voltage lineup like BFL-13 does, but one of these with short fat cables to battery which maxes out the generator's ability for the elevation, is how to achieve as high a state of charge as possible in minimum amount of generator run time.

POwerfactor correction comes into it. The PD9280 requires a 20 amp receptacle whereas the 100 amp PFC powermax can run on a 15 amp outlet, but maxes it out, or nearly so.

My mains charger is a modified Meanwell rsp-500-15 which is PFC, capable of 40 amps at any DC voltage between 13.11 and 19.23v, the 100 amp adjustable voltage Powermax I have in my workshop which maxes out at 94 amps and as high as 15.5v under lighter loads, is not exactly mine, and is an older model no longer offered.

I've got a 50 amp 'Ideal diode' on the Meanwell's output, which only drops 0.04v at 40 amps.

I'm considering getting another MW, as it will fit my available space easily, where the Powermax never could, and 'quench amperage' is outside my ability to attain via plug in charger anyway.
I used to parallel my MW with a 25 amp Schumacher 'smart' charger without the Diode, without issue, and I've been using the modified MW since September 2014 as my main charger/ converter/floater/portable charging source, and its got thousands of hours on it and I credit it to the exceptional lifespan of my Previous AGM battery, and really any battery I have been tasked with keeping alive for as long as possible.

pianotuna

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Posted: 03/13/20 10:30pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

landyacht318,

Great posts!

I'm back to low amperage slow charging as I'm part time now. Details of the system are in my signature.

I did notice an anomaly as I traveled north from Florida.

In Florida, with voltage and a temperature probe on the battery bank, the rate of charge would be 0 volts.

As I came north, to colder temperatures, that number went up--and this morning after being plugged in for 13 hours, charging rate was about 8 amps. Ambient temperatures was 3 F (-16 c).

I deliberately use the inverter to cook during the day--as I knew I would have shore power overnight.

I'm starting to wonder if I should bump up the voltage on the Magnum.

Alas I did not note the charging voltage in Florida--or along the route. I guess I missed an opportunity to "tweak" things.


Regards, Don
My ride is a 28 foot Class C, 256 watts solar, 556 amp hours of AGM in two battery banks 12 volt batteries, 3000 watt Magnum hybrid inverter, Sola Basic Autoformer, Microair Easy Start.

landyacht318

Near a large body of salty water

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Posted: 03/13/20 11:22pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Having a digital Ammeter on my dashboard showing amps into and out of the battery, and a temp sensor on the battery, and being able to spin a dial and change that voltage, is incredibly useful not ony for observation and state of charge/health of abtteries, but a great learning tool as well. The amperage accepted at absorption voltage where known 'full charge' should occur on AGMs is also convenient

My AGM says it is is full when it accepts 0.5 amps or less at 14.7v, but say at this point I lower voltage to 13.6v, and leave it there for a few more hours with no significant DC loads on the system, amperage tapers to zero, well 0.0x amps, below my ability to measure. If at this point I reboost it to 14.7v amperage tapers to 0.0x quickly again, well below that 0.5amp threshold of 'full'. so it seems while 0.5 amps at 14.7v is considered full, there is a secondary 'full' at 0.0x amps, at least while the battery is still healthy.

When driving, I have noticed if I leave it at 13.6v once fully charged, and at night with headlights on and perhaps 20 to 25 amps of total DC load,( my engine requires 12.2 amps at 2K rpm to run ignition and fuel pump, not including any field current to alternator) then the battery actually discharges slightly at 13.6v, registering 0.2 to 0.4 amps flowing from the battery, and I must get closer to 13.9v to prevent it from discharging he colder the temp the higher the voltage must be to prevent it discharging. But turn off the headlamps and blowermotor and 13.6v back to a 12 to 15 amp total dc load on alternator, is adequate to hold it full even with battery temps colder than 77f.
The reblasting to 14.7v after a few hours of my ammeter registering - 0.2 to 0.4 amps at the recommednded float voltage, shows than indeed the ammeter was right, amps were flowing out of my battery at the correct float voltage, and some period of time at 14.7v is required to return amperage acceptance below the 0.5 amp threshold considered full.

I do compensate for battery temperature.

So it seems the battery must be held above its normal float voltage in order to remain full, when there is a significant DC load on the system, to keep the amps flowing from only the alternator, and not some from the battery to help support that load.

It's not like the battery is providing much during this 'event', and I don;t know how a flooded battery compares, or other brands of AGM, only that I've witnessed it occur more than once, more than a dozen times, with two different Northstar AGMS in two different cross country road trips, California to Florida and back, twice subsequent Xmas seasons. It's easily repeatable, and with a 38 hour drive, not much else to do and I try to complete as much driving at night as I can for traffic and less wind reasons.

As such I only really lower my alternator's voltage below 13.8v, during the day when I know the battery is full and I want the solar to be powering as much of the electrical load as I can get it to, and this requires I set alternator voltage to below the float voltage setpoint of my solar controller, 13.6v.

Anyway, its not really consequential either way, but I thought it interesting that the recommended float voltage held, would still allow some slight discharging when there are significant dc loads on the system, of ~ 25 amps but not when they are under ~15. None of this would be possible without manually adjustable voltage, or the tools to display amps in out at what voltage I choose, and there is certainly ignorance in bliss and bliss in ignorance.

I know these data and observations fly in the face of accepted 'wisdom' regarding battery charging, at least that which one reads on forums like this, and no doubt despite my Speedometer saying I am doing 60mph, verified with GPS, and mile markers and a stop watch, someone will claim I am wrong and only doing 55. I tend to doubt anything written by them forever after, and question much conventional widespread 'knowledge' which is often just oft repeated/parrotted incorrect, or inaccurate opinions, shouted with an authority they actually lack.

MEXICOWANDERER

las peƱas, michoacan, mexico

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Posted: 03/14/20 04:33am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Destranding
Solder the shaved tips. If the perfect shape is round with a set screw holding the cable file the soldered tip to fit the hole exactly. The solder should solidify far enough up the cable to make the tip joinery one solid mass.

The cable must be supported two inches or so distant from the tip to reduce tension on the device's copper terminals. The gain in conductivity of such a junction when done correctly is around 12%. Verified by 4-terminal milliometer

BFL13

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Posted: 03/14/20 08:23am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

LY, in an RV, the story is that the converter supplies loads first and the battery gets what's left over. You can run the RV with no battery at all.

In your rig, can the alternator run it all when driving down the road with no battery at all?


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pianotuna

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Posted: 03/14/20 09:07am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

BFL13,

Do not run an alternator without a battery. The diodes die if you do.

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