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Open Roads Forum  >  Around the Campfire  >  General Topics

 > 2019–2022 CORONAVIRUS PANDEMIC POSTINGS

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Deb and Ed M

SW MI & Space Coast, FL USA

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Posted: 08/16/21 06:47am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

2g's wrote:

The thing is.. for these big groups/rallies ... is that people don't just come from that one city. They come from all over the country & carry the virus back to multiply. There was contact tracing done after last year's Sturgis rally and cases were carried to many states. The SD Governor is so adamant that the rally didn't cause much but she didn't include other states.


I agree - I call this "tourist Covid" - they pick it up in one place, but are back home by the time it becomes apparent that they are ill and get tested. Michigan had a HUGE peak last April, after so many had vacationed in wide-open "we love tourists" Florida for Spring Break.

Deb and Ed M

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Posted: 08/16/21 07:09am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

way2roll wrote:

Will we have to continue to develop/take vaccines as this thing mutates?


My understanding is that our immune systems "forget" coronaviruses (plus they seem to mutate faster than other viruses) which explains why we can get a cold (a coronavirus) every year.

The purpose of a vaccine, is to "teach" your immune system what an invader looks like, so it will begin to fight it off once infected. Current statistics show that most vaccinated folks will not need hospitalization if they test positive; but they can still feel lousy AND spread Covid. Yes, the shots we received are vaccines. Unfortunately, they don't appear to be a one-and-done like so many - nor do they appear to be long-lasting like a tetanus shot given every 10 years.

Right now, with Covid just raging through so many states, I would expect another variant (or several) will pop up. I doubt we will ever get rid of Covid, and will have yearly boosters.

dturm

Lake County, IN

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Posted: 08/16/21 07:10am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Part of the issue here is understanding what a vaccination is supposed to do. Ideally a vaccination should prevent infection 100% of the time. In reality most have much less efficacy AND some are designed and are effective in preventing disease not infection.

We're running into two issues here. First, the wild coronavirus (the first variation) was what was used to produce the vaccine. The first vaccines are very effective in preventing infection AND disease with this variant.

Second, the coronavirus has mutated and has multiple variants now (and will continue to mutate and produce additional variants). The vaccines are less effective against these variants due to both the mutations and possibly due to waning immunity in those vaccinated several months ago and due to the huge increase in virus particle production with the new variants.

The good news is that these vaccines are still preventing serious disease (necessitating hospitalization). Had you not been vaccinated, I suspect all of you would have more serious disease.

Sorry you are going through this. I guess your experience is a warning to the rest of us to continue to take this thing seriously.

Dr. Doug

PS - an early preprinted report indicates that the Moderna vaccine is more effective in preventing breakthrough infections, BUT it's not known when the cohort reporting was done and the relative prevalence of delta vs wild strains in the populations that were reporting. Therefore, these results still need more examination before we make serious conclusions.

BCSnob

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Posted: 08/16/21 07:16am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

way2roll wrote:

That said, are these vaccines, really vaccines - or do they just minimize symptoms?
I think there is a general misunderstanding about what vaccines provide. This website, I think, addresses some of your questions about vaccines in general. Here are a few of the questions addressed

Quote:

The College of Physicians of Philadelphia


1.How do vaccines work? Do they work against viruses and bacteria?

Vaccines work to prime your immune system against future “attacks” by a particular disease. There are vaccines against both viral and bacterial pathogens, or disease-causing agents.

When a pathogen enters your body, your immune system generates antibodies to try to fight it off. Depending on the strength of your immune response and how effectively the antibodies fight off the pathogen, you may or may not get sick.

If you do fall ill, however, some of the antibodies that are created will remain in your body playing watchdog after you’re no longer sick. If you’re exposed to the same pathogen in the future, the antibodies will ”recognize” it and fight it off.

Vaccines work because of this function of the immune system. They’re made from a killed, weakened, or partial version of a pathogen. When you get a vaccine, whatever version of the pathogen it contains isn’t strong or plentiful enough to make you sick, but it’s enough for your immune system to generate antibodies against it. As a result, you gain future immunity against the disease without having gotten sick: if you’re exposed to the pathogen again, your immune system will recognize it and be able to fight it off.

Some vaccines against bacteria are made with a form of the bacteria itself. In other cases, they may be made with a modified form of a toxin generated by the bacteria. Tetanus, for example, is not directly caused by the Clostridium tetani bacteria. Instead, its symptoms are primarily caused by tetanospasmin, a toxin generated by that bacterium. Some bacterial vaccines are therefore made with a weakened or inactivated version of the toxin that actually produces symptoms of illness. This weakened or inactivated toxin is called a toxoid. A tetanus immunization, for example, is made with tetanospasmin toxoid.


2.Why aren’t all vaccines 100% effective?

Vaccines are designed to generate an immune response that will protect the vaccinated individual during future exposures to the disease. Individual immune systems, however, are different enough that in some cases, a person’s immune system will not generate an adequate response. As a result, he or she will not be effectively protected after immunization.

That said, the effectiveness of most vaccines is high. After receiving the second dose of the MMR vaccine (measles, mumps and rubella) or the standalone measles vaccine, 99.7% of vaccinated individuals are immune to measles. The inactivated polio vaccine offers 99% effectiveness after three doses. The varicella (chickenpox) vaccine is between 85% and 90% effective in preventing all varicella infections, but 100% effective in preventing moderate and severe chicken pox.


3.Why are there so many vaccines?

Currently, the U.S. childhood vaccination schedule for children between birth and six years of age recommends immunizations for 14 different diseases. Some parents worry that this number seems high, particularly since some of the diseases being vaccinated against are now extremely rare in the United States.

Each disease for which vaccinations are recommended, however, can causes serious illness or death in unvaccinated populations, and might quickly begin to appear again if vaccination rates dropped. The United States has seen mumps outbreaks in recent years since vaccination rates have dropped, with severe complications and hospitalizations required for some patients. And before the introduction of the Hib (Haemophilus Influenzae Type b) vaccine, Hib meningitis affected more than 12,000 American children annually, killing 600 and leaving many others with seizures, deafness, and developmental disabilities. After introduction of the vaccine, the number of deaths from Hib dropped to fewer than 10 per year.

Each vaccine on the schedule continues to be recommended because of the risks posed by wild infection.


4.Is natural immunity better than vaccine-acquired immunity?

In some cases, natural immunity is longer-lasting than the immunity gained from vaccination. The risks of natural infection, however, outweigh the risks of immunization for every recommended vaccine. For example, wild measles infection causes encephalitis (inflammation of the brain) for one in 1,000 infected individuals. Overall, measles infection kills two of every 1,000 infected individuals. In contrast, the combination MMR (measles, mumps and rubella) vaccine results in a severe allergic reaction only once in every million vaccinated individuals, while preventing measles infection. The benefits of vaccine-acquired immunity extraordinarily outweigh the serious risks of natural infection. (For more on this topic, see our Understanding Risks activity.)

Additionally, the Hib (Haemophilus influenzae type b) and tetanus vaccines actually provide more effective immunity than natural infection.


5.Why do some vaccines require boosters?

It’s not completely understood why the length of acquired immunity varies with different vaccines. Some offer lifelong immunity with only one dose, while others require boosters in order to maintain immunity. Recent research has suggested that the persistence of immunity against a particular disease may depend on the speed with which that disease typically progresses through the body. If a disease progresses very rapidly, the immune system’s memory response (that is, the “watchdog antibodies” generated after a previous infection or vaccination) may not be able to respond quickly enough to prevent infection—unless they’ve been “reminded” about the disease fairly recently and are already watching for it. Boosters serve as a “reminder” to your immune system.

Research is continuing on the persistence of immunity generated by vaccines


The vaccines for SAR-CoV-2 were developed with a specific genetic variant (the first one called "wild type" or "Wuhan"). As the virus replicates while infecting people it can evolve (change genetically); these genetic changes can alter how well the immune system (memory of different variants) can respond to these new variants. Thus far, the immune systems "primed" by a past infection or vaccine has been able to respond to these new variants by not as effectively to the variant that "primed" immune system. Also, some of these new variants have been able to replicate faster/more meaning there are more virus particles in an infected body that need to be defended against than produced by the Wuhan variant (one used to make the vaccines). On average (science is unable to define immune responses for each individual and each exposure to a virus), breakthrough infections have been milder than infections in unvaccinated people.

way2roll

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Posted: 08/16/21 07:43am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Thanks for the explanations and they all make sense. I do think there is a misunderstanding across the general public that a vaccination is a shield that not only protects you from infection but also means you are free to dance around without risk of infecting anyone else. The truth is a vaccinated person can just as easily infect anyone as much as an unvaccinated person - worse yet, a vaccinated person may be asymptomatic and unknowingly spread it around. Misinformation is causing yet another divide in that unvaccinated people are being ostracized. Vaccine mandates are becoming a thing and the reality is that a person who was vaccinated a long time ago may no longer even have enough to stave off a serious illness thus rendering the aged vaccine almost moot. Trust me when I say that I fully support the vaccine, if anything to keep people from dying and overloading hospitals. But there is a LOT of misinformation out there on both sides of the vax argument and people believe what they want to believe. It also doesn't help that we are fed conflicting information as details develop. Nature of the beast I suppose. We only know what we know. This is becoming increasingly scary tough.


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MEXICOWANDERER

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Posted: 08/16/21 01:34pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Today's Johns Hopkins reports Moderna's research into high titer antibody count and immunological protection levels is fascinating. My prime + boost Sinovac + Moderna is supposed to lead to 600% amplification of B antibodies and corresponding 400% increase in T cell production.

Day 3 of after-effects seems to agree with the assertions. Fatigue, body aches, but no fever no cough have driven me back to bed. I really cannot recommend the Prime + Boost methodology unless you have time and a stiff upper lip.

Titer levels will be forthcoming next month via Scripps Medical Center.

2g's

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Posted: 08/16/21 11:29pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

dturm wrote:

First, the wild coronavirus (the first variation) was what was used to produce the vaccine.


Just to clarify this statement..... the virus was not used to produce the vaccine.

https://insider.kaiserpermanente.org/covid-19-vaccine-facts-and-myths/

dturm

Lake County, IN

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Posted: 08/17/21 03:29am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

OK, to be technically correct the genetic sequencing from the wild type coronavirus was used as the template to create the mRNA that would stimulate production of the spike protein of that wild strain thus stimulating an immune response.

My wife has RA and contacted her rheumatologist. She previously had an antibody test showing a response to the Pfizer vaccine, but he recommended a third shot and she's scheduled for Friday. We'll report on reactions.


Doug & Sandy
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BCSnob

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Posted: 08/17/21 04:49am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Just to be clear, there are a few approved (EAU) vaccines based upon inactivated virus; just not approved (wrong word, it should read “authorized”; none have yet to be approved) in the USA. At least one of those posting here has received a vaccine of this type.


This overview from April 2021 lists 4 vaccines based upon inactivated virus.
An overview of current COVID-19 vaccine platforms

* This post was last edited 08/17/21 06:40am by BCSnob *   View edit history

Deb and Ed M

SW MI & Space Coast, FL USA

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Posted: 08/17/21 08:54am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:



Day 3 of after-effects seems to agree with the assertions. Fatigue, body aches, but no fever no cough have driven me back to bed. I really cannot recommend the Prime + Boost methodology unless you have time and a stiff upper lip.



Keep us posted (and hope you feel better quickly) - now that the CDC has decreed that this IS the route to go, I certainly plan to take advantage of it. I'd still rather spend a few lousy-feeling days in my own bed, than a hospital.

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