RV.Net Open Roads Forum: Travel Trailers: Weight Distribution with sway control question

RV Blog

  |  

RV Sales

  |  

Campgrounds

  |  

RV Parks

  |  

RV Club

  |  

RV Buyers Guide

  |  

Roadside Assistance

  |  

Extended Service Plan

  |  

RV Travel Assistance

  |  

RV Credit Card

  |  

RV Loans

Open Roads Forum Already a member? Login here.   If not, Register Today!  |  Help

Newest  |  Active  |  Popular  |  RVing FAQ Forum Rules  |  Forum Posting Help and Support  |  Contact  

Search:   Advanced Search

Search only in Travel Trailers

Open Roads Forum  >  Travel Trailers  >  General Q&A

 > Weight Distribution with sway control question

Reply to Topic  |  Subscribe  |  Print Topic  |  Post New Topic  | 
Page of 4  
Prev
Sponsored By:
aftermath

Washington State

Senior Member

Joined: 09/18/2005

View Profile



Good Sam RV Club Member

Offline
Posted: 04/11/20 08:38am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

BobbyHJ, you asked a pretty straight forward question and got all sorts of testimonials. People will always support their decisions about what they drive, what the pull and how they hook it up. Human nature I suppose. Many of these posts sound like advertisements. Mine is better because it resists sway, it reacts to sway, it pushes, it pulls and if you own a HA or PP they will say it totally prevents sway.

To answer your question, both will do the job. There are a nice selection of hitches out there today and as long as it is matched to your trailer and TV combo and is set up properly you should be good to go. Posts that mention things like the location of your tanks, whether or not you want to drill into your frame and stuff like that bring up good points. I would add ease of hooking and unhooking and making adjustments if things change should also be considered.

That said, I will now defend my choice of my Equalizer. I have been towing with this brand hitch for about 16 years now, first on a white box trailer and now on my Airstream. When I first started out, the hitches that used chains lifted into place were also problematic when it came to backing up. This has been fixed today so it no longer is an issue. This was the reason I went with the Equalizer. I can hitch and unhitch on uneven ground and come at my trailer from any angle. Placing the bars is easy and I have never had to even use the pry bars to put them in place. It tows nicely and even in the stiffest of winds, I have never had a problem with sway. I am a KISS kind of guy. When I have a choice between two good options I will look for the one that is the simplest to operate. HA and PP are great hitches, the best as their owners always claim, but they require special backing skills and techniques along with dealing with a very heavy hitch head. Won't be going there any time soon.


2017 Toyota Tundra, Double Cab, 5.7L V8
2006 Airstream 25 FB SE
Equalizer Hitch

ScottG

Bothell Wa.

Senior Member

Joined: 02/25/2005

View Profile


Offline
Posted: 04/11/20 09:11am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

LarryJM wrote:

ScottG wrote:


Well Larry, as a retired engineer I do understand how such things work and I can explain how lateral force is generated but I don't think you're open to a civil discussion about it. So, there's no reason for me to attempt to do so. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
One thing is for certain, there is absolutely no friction material employed in the DC.

Good luck to you.


Again IMO you clearly have demonstrated a true lack of understanding of these systems since the Equal-i-zer just like the DC Cam also has no friction material either. Both using the metal to metal friction with the DC Cam only using "sliding friction" whereas the Equal-i-zer uses both "rotational" friction from the sockets along with "sliding" friction from the bars in the "L" brackets.

Also anytime I see someone trying to use some vague education or experience credentials like your "retired engineer" reference often tells me one has no valid or verifiable position on a subject. While I could try and support my input on the subject being discussed here by saying I have and "actual" masters degree in engineering, but my degree is in "systems engineering" which has no real direct application to the topic of this thread so I don't go there. Thus, I quoted a real mechanical engineer that as Hunting has metioned has posted extensively on various mechanical based subject over a number of years and was a well known and I think respected source of actual factual knowledge of how things like these sway systems work in the real world.

With all that I think I have given anyone reading this thread a sufficiently based and referenced good source of information to support the position I have expressed here that the DC Cam system "NEITHER FORCES OR PUSHES" anything ... just like the Equal-i-zer system, it simply "resists" by friction sway movement of a trailer when towed.

Larry


Your attempt at a passive agressive insult aside, I do understand what Ron wrote back then (I remember it). Ron had his own motivation behind his statements. His post was obtuse and took a long and eloborate path to avoid the true mechanics of what is going on with the DC system. Ron had a bit of an ego and seemed to feel he had to post on things even though he didn't really have an answer.

The force of the DC system is no more absolute than the friction systems are. A friction bar resists movement but is not strong enough to cause the truck to drag a trailer sideways after a sharp turn - the bar slips to allow that movement. The friction material itself has a break-over point at which it yields.

The DC also has a BO point. As the truck and trailer get out of line, the pocket of the spring bar is forced against the cam (which cannot move in relation to the trailer) and the steep slope of the pocket is forced against the cam. This is the point of greatest force and the trailer is now pushing against this sharp angle in the spring bars. It takes MORE force to climb this steep portion of the spring bar than it would to slide along the straight section of it. For the combination to continue to get more out of line, the bar has to be bent upward. That amount of force is relative. It isn't so great that it cannot be overcome but is is suffcient to provide a "bump" that the trailer has to act against. This is the "active" part because it doesnjust slow down movement, it's pushing back against it. The two parts push against each other with cancelling force until the cam overcomes the pocket and slides along the bar. Sway control is all but lost after this breakover is achieved.

Just like the friction device, this relative force is enough to influence the attitude of the combo but not enough to send things sliding.

To adress other comments, the leverage at the tongue is not nearly what it is at the back of the trailer - this is true. It doesn't need to be. Would you suggest that a friction bar has no effect because of its location? No, I'm sure you wouldn't. So we know the attitude of the trailer can be influenced in that location.

Notice I made that entire post without insulting anyone else posting in this thread?

* This post was edited 04/11/20 09:23am by ScottG *


Scott, Grace and Wesly
2003 Dodge 3500 4x4, 6 speed Cummins.
2018 Silver Fox 32A.
H0NDA eu2000i

Huntindog

Phoenix AZ

Senior Member

Joined: 04/08/2002

View Profile



Posted: 04/11/20 10:13am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

ScottG wrote:

LarryJM wrote:

ScottG wrote:


Well Larry, as a retired engineer I do understand how such things work and I can explain how lateral force is generated but I don't think you're open to a civil discussion about it. So, there's no reason for me to attempt to do so. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
One thing is for certain, there is absolutely no friction material employed in the DC.

Good luck to you.


Again IMO you clearly have demonstrated a true lack of understanding of these systems since the Equal-i-zer just like the DC Cam also has no friction material either. Both using the metal to metal friction with the DC Cam only using "sliding friction" whereas the Equal-i-zer uses both "rotational" friction from the sockets along with "sliding" friction from the bars in the "L" brackets.

Also anytime I see someone trying to use some vague education or experience credentials like your "retired engineer" reference often tells me one has no valid or verifiable position on a subject. While I could try and support my input on the subject being discussed here by saying I have and "actual" masters degree in engineering, but my degree is in "systems engineering" which has no real direct application to the topic of this thread so I don't go there. Thus, I quoted a real mechanical engineer that as Hunting has metioned has posted extensively on various mechanical based subject over a number of years and was a well known and I think respected source of actual factual knowledge of how things like these sway systems work in the real world.

With all that I think I have given anyone reading this thread a sufficiently based and referenced good source of information to support the position I have expressed here that the DC Cam system "NEITHER FORCES OR PUSHES" anything ... just like the Equal-i-zer system, it simply "resists" by friction sway movement of a trailer when towed.

Larry


Your attempt at a passive agressive insult aside, I do understand what Ron wrote back then (I remember it). Ron had his own motivation behind his statements. His post was obtuse and took a long and eloborate path to avoid the true mechanics of what is going on with the DC system. Ron had a bit of an ego and seemed to feel he had to post on things even though he didn't really have an answer.

The force of the DC system is no more absolute than the friction systems are. A friction bar resists movement but is not strong enough to cause the truck to drag a trailer sideways after a sharp turn - the bar slips to allow that movement. The friction material itself has a break-over point at which it yields.

The DC also has a BO point. As the truck and trailer get out of line, the pocket of the spring bar is forced against the cam (which cannot move in relation to the trailer) and the steep slope of the pocket is forced against the cam. This is the point of greatest force and the trailer is now pushing against this sharp angle in the spring bars. It takes MORE force to climb this steep portion of the spring bar than it would to slide along the straight section of it. For the combination to continue to get more out of line, the bar has to be bent upward. That amount of force is relative. It isn't so great that it cannot be overcome but is is suffcient to provide a "bump" that the trailer has to act against. This is the "active" part because it doesnjust slow down movement, it's pushing back against it. The two parts push against each other with cancelling force until the cam overcomes the pocket and slides along the bar. Sway control is all but lost after this breakover is achieved.

Just like the friction device, this relative force is enough to influence the attitude of the combo but not enough to send things sliding.

To adress other comments, the leverage at the tongue is not nearly what it is at the back of the trailer - this is true. It doesn't need to be. Would you suggest that a friction bar has no effect because of its location? No, I'm sure you wouldn't. So we know the attitude of the trailer can be influenced in that location.

Notice I made that entire post without insulting anyone else posting in this thread?


You just described exactly why the DC is a FRICTION hitch.

The rest is just opinons... Is the DC better because it has increased friction when moving away from center than towards center? or is the Equalizer better because it can generate more force equally in BOTH directions?

Keep in mind that SWAY is a back and forth motion of the TT.

In reality, they both perform well. The advantage of the so called centering action of the DC is cancelled out if one believes that sway is when the TT wags back and forth... Since the DC has less force in this direction, it is at a disadvantage at that stage of sway. The EQUALIZER with its 4 points of friction can generate more antisway force in both directions.

Bottom line... They both perform well.



Huntindog
100% boondocking
2021 Grand Design Momentum 398M
2 bathrooms, no waiting
104 gal grey, 104 black,158 fresh
FBP, 3, 8K axles, Disc Brakes
17.5 LRH commercial tires
300 watts solar,
2020 Silverado High Country CC DA 4X4 Big Dually.



ScottG

Bothell Wa.

Senior Member

Joined: 02/25/2005

View Profile


Offline
Posted: 04/11/20 10:44am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Huntindog wrote:

ScottG wrote:

LarryJM wrote:

ScottG wrote:


Well Larry, as a retired engineer I do understand how such things work and I can explain how lateral force is generated but I don't think you're open to a civil discussion about it. So, there's no reason for me to attempt to do so. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
One thing is for certain, there is absolutely no friction material employed in the DC.

Good luck to you.


Again IMO you clearly have demonstrated a true lack of understanding of these systems since the Equal-i-zer just like the DC Cam also has no friction material either. Both using the metal to metal friction with the DC Cam only using "sliding friction" whereas the Equal-i-zer uses both "rotational" friction from the sockets along with "sliding" friction from the bars in the "L" brackets.

Also anytime I see someone trying to use some vague education or experience credentials like your "retired engineer" reference often tells me one has no valid or verifiable position on a subject. While I could try and support my input on the subject being discussed here by saying I have and "actual" masters degree in engineering, but my degree is in "systems engineering" which has no real direct application to the topic of this thread so I don't go there. Thus, I quoted a real mechanical engineer that as Hunting has metioned has posted extensively on various mechanical based subject over a number of years and was a well known and I think respected source of actual factual knowledge of how things like these sway systems work in the real world.

With all that I think I have given anyone reading this thread a sufficiently based and referenced good source of information to support the position I have expressed here that the DC Cam system "NEITHER FORCES OR PUSHES" anything ... just like the Equal-i-zer system, it simply "resists" by friction sway movement of a trailer when towed.

Larry


Your attempt at a passive agressive insult aside, I do understand what Ron wrote back then (I remember it). Ron had his own motivation behind his statements. His post was obtuse and took a long and eloborate path to avoid the true mechanics of what is going on with the DC system. Ron had a bit of an ego and seemed to feel he had to post on things even though he didn't really have an answer.

The force of the DC system is no more absolute than the friction systems are. A friction bar resists movement but is not strong enough to cause the truck to drag a trailer sideways after a sharp turn - the bar slips to allow that movement. The friction material itself has a break-over point at which it yields.

The DC also has a BO point. As the truck and trailer get out of line, the pocket of the spring bar is forced against the cam (which cannot move in relation to the trailer) and the steep slope of the pocket is forced against the cam. This is the point of greatest force and the trailer is now pushing against this sharp angle in the spring bars. It takes MORE force to climb this steep portion of the spring bar than it would to slide along the straight section of it. For the combination to continue to get more out of line, the bar has to be bent upward. That amount of force is relative. It isn't so great that it cannot be overcome but is is suffcient to provide a "bump" that the trailer has to act against. This is the "active" part because it doesnjust slow down movement, it's pushing back against it. The two parts push against each other with cancelling force until the cam overcomes the pocket and slides along the bar. Sway control is all but lost after this breakover is achieved.

Just like the friction device, this relative force is enough to influence the attitude of the combo but not enough to send things sliding.

To adress other comments, the leverage at the tongue is not nearly what it is at the back of the trailer - this is true. It doesn't need to be. Would you suggest that a friction bar has no effect because of its location? No, I'm sure you wouldn't. So we know the attitude of the trailer can be influenced in that location.

Notice I made that entire post without insulting anyone else posting in this thread?


You just described exactly why the DC is a FRICTION hitch.

The rest is just opinons... Is the DC better because it has increased friction when moving away from center than towards center? or is the Equalizer better because it can generate more force equally in BOTH directions?

Keep in mind that SWAY is a back and forth motion of the TT.

In reality, they both perform well. The advantage of the so called centering action of the DC is cancelled out if one believes that sway is when the TT wags back and forth... Since the DC has less force in this direction, it is at a disadvantage at that stage of sway. The EQUALIZER with its 4 points of friction can generate more antisway force in both directions.

Bottom line... They both perform well.


I don't see any friction and the instructions actually tell you lube those points when the hitch is set up tightly. They're actually a little comical. They say "never lubricate..." then go on to say "lubricate if... and finally, 'always lubricate..."
Both sides of the DC do work to control sway at the same time. They're just climbing up oposite ends of the bars saddles/pockets from each other.

Notice I never said friction systems dont work - they do but my experince is that the DC works better. I had a friction system for a long time. It worked OK but would tend to wear and get noisy (esp when wet). Seems like it would get contaminated with road scum, etc.
To us, the DC is easier and faster to set up than installing the extra friction bar.

Huntindog

Phoenix AZ

Senior Member

Joined: 04/08/2002

View Profile



Posted: 04/12/20 05:42am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

ScottG wrote:

I don't see any friction
You do not "see" friction. It exists.
Just about any solid surface can be used as a friction surface.

The EQUALIZER is a friction based hitch, and you haven't disputed this fact at all.

For some reason though, your beloved DC is not a friction hitch even though its anti sway force also relies on 2 metal surfaces sliding against each other.
Just because you want something to be so.... Doesn't make it so.

Oh yeah, that makes you WRONG.... Which is what you previously told me.


* This post was last edited 04/13/20 05:41am by Huntindog *   View edit history

beermanjoe

Pa

Full Member

Joined: 01/01/2011

View Profile



Good Sam RV Club Member

Offline
Posted: 04/12/20 10:36am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

I went from the cheap L bars with chains to an Equalizer with 4 point sway. Night and day performance. Should have done it years ago. I know nothing about the Reese but do know the Equalizer works great.


2018 Ram 2500 4x4 CC 4.10 gears 2020 Shadow Cruiser 329QBS

kellem

Shenandoah valley,VA

Senior Member

Joined: 05/07/2007

View Profile


Offline
Posted: 04/12/20 11:34am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

I really don't care which WDH is better as my Reese DC works and is paid for.

Only way possible to find out would be real world test.
Use same truck and trailer and significantly reduce tounge weight by shifting weight to rear of trailer and run the same stretch of road......and the winner is ?

Huntindog

Phoenix AZ

Senior Member

Joined: 04/08/2002

View Profile



Posted: 04/13/20 05:45am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

kellem wrote:

I really don't care which WDH is better as my Reese DC works and is paid for.

Only way possible to find out would be real world test.
Use same truck and trailer and significantly reduce tounge weight by shifting weight to rear of trailer and run the same stretch of road......and the winner is ?
Probably the standard friction bar. It is the only antisway that does not depend on TW for its antisway resistance.

Which is why I recomend it for newbies. One can miss the setup badly and still derive some benefit from it.


Hannibal

Tampa Bay Area

Senior Member

Joined: 04/12/2002

View Profile


Offline
Posted: 04/14/20 09:29am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Many years ago, a family friend towed their Airstream with a Dodge station wagon using a Reese dual cam hitch. You could feel it snap back to center after a turn.
All sway control hitches only offer limited resistance to sway caused by minor pushes from wind or road conditions. Sway caused by improper load is way more force than sway control hitches offer.
I've never seen a test of the Pro-pride type hitch using a tongue light trailer. It would be interesting to see the results. A properly loaded trailer tows well without sway control so we may never know how effective they are.


2020 F250 STX CC SB 7.3L 10spd 3.55 4x4
2010 F250 XLT CC SB 5.4L 5spdTS 3.73
ex '95 Cummins,'98 12v Cummins,'01.5 Cummins,'03 Cummins; '05 Hemi
2017 Jayco 28RLS TT 32.5'. Reese HP Trunnion 800

Reply to Topic  |  Subscribe  |  Print Topic  |  Post New Topic  | 
Page of 4  
Prev

Open Roads Forum  >  Travel Trailers  >  General Q&A

 > Weight Distribution with sway control question
Search:   Advanced Search

Search only in Travel Trailers


New posts No new posts
Closed, new posts Closed, no new posts
Moved, new posts Moved, no new posts

Adjust text size:




© 2020 CWI, Inc. © 2020 Good Sam Enterprises, LLC. All Rights Reserved.