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fourthclassC

MA

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Posted: 08/31/20 12:33pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

I have had 5 class c's over the years: 73 Gladding del Ray, 86 Crossman, 73 Tioga, 94 Tioga, and now 2003 Winnebago Mini 24V. The Winnibago stands out not just because it is newest, the design and attention to detail make it better. The aluminum frame (camper section not the Ford Chassis) make a big difference because it won't rust every place it leaks. I strongly recommend a Winnebago or Itasca product for getting the most for your $.

pnichols

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Posted: 09/03/20 10:23pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

fourthclassC wrote:

I have had 5 class c's over the years: 73 Gladding del Ray, 86 Crossman, 73 Tioga, 94 Tioga, and now 2003 Winnebago Mini 24V. The Winnibago stands out not just because it is newest, the design and attention to detail make it better. The aluminum frame (camper section not the Ford Chassis) make a big difference because it won't rust every place it leaks. I strongly recommend a Winnebago or Itasca product for getting the most for your $.


Yep ... I do a lot of Class C research and so far our 2005 Itasca 24V (by Winnebago) is in today's new models not duplicated in overall build quality, features, and design - all taken in combination - by any other manufacturer.

We found and bought it new by pure luck, as we were really newbies when shopping for a Class C years ago.

* This post was last edited 09/04/20 03:17pm by pnichols *   View edit history


Phil, 2005 E450 Itasca Spirit 24V

eadeal55

Norfolk VA

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Posted: 09/07/20 07:48pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

We reviewed a lot of RV manufacturers in looking for a Class C to downsize into from our 34ft gas class A. Gas chassis or diesel chassis? We wanted a diesel for better fuel mileage. A couple good choices, but we decided on the Mercedes-Benz Sprinter chassis. Tiffin was our choice of manufacturer because of their after the purchase support reputation.


Andy & Lee + Molly, the 4 lb Chihuahua
2020 Tiffin Wayfarer 25RW...towing a
2007 Chevy HHR LT2 w/2.4L EcoTec,
Blue Ox Aventa LX, Brake Buddy Classic
FMCA #F359977 - Colonial Virginians, Past President 2012-14, 2018

ron.dittmer

North-East Illinois

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Posted: 09/10/20 08:23am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

abdiver wrote:

I recently heard that Phoenix Cruisers are a NEW manufacture of RVs?
No, not true.

We special-ordered our PC brand new in 2007, eight years after their first class B+ came off their assembly line. So far, very good. We do keep ours garaged when not in-use which helps keep it in like-new condition. We really love our rig. We bought it primary for the two of us for our later years without consideration for guests. We do well with an occasional guest, but 4 people sleeping in our PC would put the 4th adult on the floor or in a reclined captain seat.

CLICK HERE to see many inside and outside of our 2007 Phoenix Cruiser, model 2350 without the standard slide out. The money we saved by not having a slide out, we instead invested in the full body paint job.


2007 Phoenix Cruiser model 2350, with 2006 Jeep Liberty in-tow


garmp

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Posted: 09/13/20 02:22pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

ron.dittmer wrote:

We bought it primary for the two of us for our later years without consideration for guests.

Good post Ron. As we tell family our 2351D can seat 6, feed 4, but sleep 2!


Our 2351D Phoenix Cruiser, Jack, has turned us from campers into RVers and loving it!


js218

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Posted: 09/13/20 04:00pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

If looking for a Super C check out Showhauler, Hallmark or Renegade.


2017 Haulmark 45' Super C 600hp, 12 speed I shift transmission, tandem drive axles, 3 stage engine brake, towing 26' trailer with an 08 explorer inside.
Jim

ron.dittmer

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Posted: 09/13/20 07:54pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Hi again abdiver,

Here are some general considerations when shopping for a "good" motor home.

New, used, or well used, when shopping for a conventional class B+ or C, the most important consideration is how it is constructed. This post outlines construction methods which are most affordable and methods that cost more, but are built to hold up much better to the elements and also the punishment of the road.

Some motor home manufactures offer different levels of quality through their various model lines. Instead of providing a list of brands to consider, it is best to identify what "Better" is.

When shopping for a motor home, don't get distracted with "Eye Candy" and "Square Footage". You want to pay close attention to how the house is constructed. Water infiltration is the number one killer of motor homes, rotting them away long before anything is worn out. Once water gets inside, it is like termites. By the time you realize there is a problem, a lot of damage has already occurred. Also consider that mold & mildew can grow inside the walls which then you have a health hazard. My advise focuses on identifying a reliably well sealed motor home.

#1 BEST (Very Expensive, Can Be 1.5 times the cost of Second Best)
NO structural seam work. The brand Coach House is a fine example. It is seamless, made from a mold. The only places where water can leak is cutouts for windows, entry door, roof-top vents & a/c unit, storage compartments & maintenance access, all of which are in areas of very low stress. Because they have a seamless shell, these motor homes are not common and have a limited selection of sizes and floor plans.

#2 SECOND BEST
Common, Affordable, & comes in Many Sizes so this is my main focus
I own an example of this type. My Rig Here manufactured by Phoenix USA.
Made in sections, but assembled in a way that greatly reduces the threat of water damage. Here are the good things you want to look for.

a) Structural Seams Away From Corners
When a motor home is driven, the house bounces, resonates, shakes, and leans countless times, representing a endless series of earthquakes. Corner seams see greater stresses than seams located elsewhere. Corner seams are more easily split, especially when the caulk gets brittle with age & exposure to the sun. One extremely bad bump in the road can instantly breach a corner seam. Seams hold up much better when they are brought in from the corners in lesser stressed areas.

b) A Seamless Over-The-Van Front Cap
A huge bed above the van’s roof is the most vulnerable area of a motor home. No matter how well they are made, that long frontal over-hang resonates when the RV is driven making it common for seams to split there, most troublesome with age & exposure to the elements. HERE is an example, one of many water-damage threads I have read. Scroll down in that thread to see pictures of the real damage.

The small front aerodynamic cap of a B+ design HERE eliminates the overhang which eliminates most of the resonation, along with the most vulnerable seam work.

There are a few conventional “C” Designs (big over-van bed) where that area is seamless. If you absolutely must have that huge bed, then look for a seamless bucket-like design. The Itasca Navion is a fine example. If your requirements are to have a large class-C with a massive over-van bed, the best example I seen was this Fleetwood Tioga model offered around 2008-2009. It is unfortunate all class-Cs don't practice seamless cab-over area construction for it would greatly improve the class-C industry.

Increasing in popularity by many manufactures is a shallow bucket design with fewer seams located in less-stressed areas. The Nexus Triumph is one such example. This shallow bucket design is a reasonable compromise.

If you plan to accommodate more than 2 people, having that large extra cab-over bed will be extremely useful.

c) A Crowned Roof
Rain and snow melt runs off a crowned roof. A flat roof will sag over time, then water puddles around heavy roof-top items like the a/c unit. Water eventually finds it's way inside after gaskets & caulk have degraded from age, sun, and change in seasons.

d) Rolled-Over-The-Edge seamless Fiberglass Roof Sheathing
A single sheet of fiberglass as shown HERE that rolls over the right & left sides of the roof, down to the wall. The overlapping of fiberglass to the wall provides a good water seal and the fiberglass sheathing holds up better than roofs made of sheet rubber or thin plastic called TPO, which require more attention to keep your RV well protected.

e) A Five Sided Rear Wall Cap
A five sided back wall moves the seams around to the sides to areas of much less stress as seen HERE. The rear wall resembles a shallow rectangular cooking pan standing on it's side. Like the example, some rear wall sections are constructed with an integrated spare tire compartment and rear storage compartment. Not only are they convenience features, but that rear wall/cap offers a solid double-wall for exceptional strength which is more resistant to flexing the adjoining seam work. It helps in keeping the house together.

Don't be fooled. Some manufactures add rear wall sectional styling which gives the appearance of a 5-sided pan design. Though not as desirable, they are still an improvement because all the holes for lighting and such are not in the structural wall where water could otherwise get inside the house. You can easily tell by noting the sections & seams between them and the flat back wall that remains exposed. CLICK HERE to see an example.

f) Walls Are Either Resting On The Floor Or Bolted Against It
Common sense would say the walls should rest on the floor, but some manufactures actually bolt the walls into the side of the floor framing. This means the weight of the roof and walls (and everything hanging on them) rests on mounting bolts. How well will that method hold up when being driven for so many thousands of miles? Checking for this is very difficult. It takes a trained eye for sure. CLICK HERE for an example of it done right with the walls resting on the floor.

Bigger Will Be Weaker
The size & floor plan you select MUST FIRST meet your needs before this consideration.
The bigger the house, the weaker the structure will be. Consider two cardboard boxes made from the exact same corrugated material. The smaller box would naturally be stronger. It will be more resistant to bending, twisting, and other types of flexing. So if you are on the fence between models, the smaller one will be your stronger choice.

Potentially Troublesome Construction
Entry level motor homes are made with seams in corners and finished off with trim, including the massive cab-over bed. Their roof is flat and finished with rubber or TPO. They are most affordable, and come in all sizes. HERE is one such example. If considering this construction type, keep in-mind they require more regular care with bi-annual inspections. Plan to use a caulking gun now and then. When buying a used one, consider that you really don't know how well the previous owner maintained it. Buying new or used, that construction method will be counting on you to be a good non-neglectful owner.

There are also the rare exception of the Lazy Daze which has seam work in the corners, but the substructure and sealing method is of the highest quality that it holds up like a seamless body. It's excellent sectional construction methods are not commonly found in other brands. I am no expert on this, but I'd give it a #1.5 Almost Like Best

A Caution Concerning Slide Outs
Slide outs are most popular. Everybody loves the extra floor space they provide. There are so few motor homes made without at least one slide out. Unfortunately slide outs can introduce risk of water damage to the main floor around them. Good seals work when the rig is young, but can loose their ability to seal properly as they age. When looking at used rigs with slide outs, closely examine the main floor around each one. If you can lift the carpet adjacent to the slide out and see the wood floor is a gray color, that is a sign that water gets inside. Also, completely open the slide out and step on the main floor adjacent to the slide out. If it feels soft, the plywood or chip board material underneath likely requires replacing.

About The Chassis
The most popular is the Ford E350 and E450 with the V10 engine, and this year Ford replaces that 6.8L-V10 with a larger, more powerful 7.3L-V8. The Ford Transit diesel and the Mercedes Sprinter diesel are popular alternatives to the E350 in the smaller sizes. The GM 3500 & 4500 chassis are not popular but are a very good choice for the right application. Any of the chassis mentioned made since 1998 are real good, new or used. If you plan to tow a car or heavy trailer, be aware that the Transit and Sprinter will be least powered. People who tow with them naturally take it slower. I am not sure a Transit can tow anything significant. That needs further research.

If considering a recent “small” class B+ or C motor home, here is a comparison between the two current main chassis contenders, the Sprinter with the V6 diesel engine and the Ford E350 with the V10 gasoline engine.

Advantages Of The Mercedes Sprinter With Diesel Engine
- Offers a 35%-50% improvement in fuel economy over the Ford-V10, when both are loaded and driven identically.
- More ergonomic driver compartment with more leg room.
- Comfort continues with a car-like feel & quiet ride.
- A grander view out the windshield
- Made by Mercedes which people are attracted to.

Advantages Of The Ford E350 with V10 Engine
- Given identical motor homes both brand and model, the Ford is around $24,000 MSRP cheaper
- The Ford V10 engine has 50% more horse power and torque
- The Ford E350 chassis handles 1430 pounds more weight.
- The E350 is able to tow a heavier load.
- The E350 rear axle is significantly wider which translates to better stability.
- In most places traveled, gasoline costs less than diesel fuel
- The Sprinter diesel has limited mechanical service shops around North America
- The Sprinter diesel is typically outfitted with a propane generator. Propane is a critical fuel for RV operations, and generally needs to be rationed when dry camping.
- This Next Point Is Debatable But Still Worth Noting....The V6 Sprinter diesel engine is not allowed to idle for extended periods. This limitation is detrimental when you need a/c but there are generator restrictions, you are low on propane, or you have a mechanical failure with the generator or roof a/c. The Ford offers a great backup system. The V10 can safely idle for hours on end, heating, cooling, and battery charging, all valuable if you have a baby, pets, or health/respiratory issues.

You decide what your priorities are, and pick the appropriate chassis. There are some really sweet motor homes being built exclusively on the Sprinter chassis, such as the Winnebago Navion and View.

The Ford Transit Chassis
This chassis is increasing in popularity in the smallest sizes. According to Ford's website, the Transit DRW chassis is offered in the 156", and 178" wheel base, and is rated as high as 10,360 GVWR. Ford offers a motor home package specific for the RV industry. It's diesel engine compares to the Sprinter in power and fuel economy, but is more affordable and is easily serviced at Ford service centers, just like the E350 & E450. The cab has a lower stance than the Sprinter making it much more friendly to get into and out from for people in their later years. Entering and exiting is more like a mini-van rather than a standard van. The Transit's lower cab also offers roomier over-head bunks that are easier to access.

The Dodge Promaster 3500 Cut-Away Chassis
This front wheel drive chassis is another recent entry in the RV industry. I am concerned over it's lack of load capability as reflected with single free-wheeling rear wheels. I have been reading posts written by new Promaster RV owners stating they are over-weight with just two people, some personal effects and food. They say they can't carry water and never a 3rd person. I would not be comfortable with such a limited load range in a B+ or C. This chassis does seem to be a good option in the "B" motor home market.

The Chevy 3500 & 4500 Chassis
Unfortunately this chassis is not more popular, primarily because GM sort-of gave up on competing with the Ford E350 & E450. It offers more interior comfort than the Ford, but not as much as the Sprinter. It's power & weight ratings are a little less than their Ford counter-parts making them a great chassis for all but the heaviest of class Cs. They are also a little better on fuel consumption. One thing to keep in-mind, if you are counting inches in storing your rig, the Chevy is a little longer than the Ford by a number of inches which was critical for us with our garage as seen HERE with our Ford 2007 E350 rig. That could be the reason why the Chevy has a little more interior driver/passenger leg room.

The Ford E350 & E450
The majority of class B+ and C motor homes are built on one of these two chassis for a number of very good reasons, and with the changes in recent years to the engine and transmission, the good reasons increase. They have more power and load capability than the others. Ford approves outfitters to modify the chassis to increase or decrease the wheel base which supplies motor home companies a lot of design freedom. Ford has off-the-shelf components that work with the wheel base modification. So if you need a new drive shaft, fuel line, brake line, parking brake cable, wire harness, whatever, Ford has them available. Finally, the E350 and E450 chassis is competitively priced.

Engine Power Ratings of Ford, MB-Sprinter, Chevy, and Dodge
Ford E350 & E450 - 6.8L-V10, 305hp, 420ft (7.3L-V8 starting in 2020)
Ford Transit Diesel - 3.2L-I5, 185hp, 350ft
Mercedes Sprinter Diesel - 3.0L-V6, 188hp, 325ft
Chevy 3500 & 4500 - 6.0L-V8, 323hp, 373ft
Dodge Promaster - 3.6L-V6 (GVW only 9,300 pounds)

Now to supply some data as to why I feel our Phoenix Cruiser stands above most other brands. These two videos drag on, but provide lots of data and also clarify critical things to look for when evaluating any brand.

CLICK HERE on a comparison between a Phoenix Cruiser and an undisclosed brand. I think it is a Nexus. There is a lot of nit-picking but is notable when adding it all up. It is also educational on what makes a better motor home...of coarse at a higher price too.

CLICK HERE for a slideshow on how a Phoenix Cruiser is built. I feel this slide show teaches so much, especially about hidden things that unsuspecting buyers would never think about.

abdiver

Just north of San Francisco

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Posted: 09/14/20 09:55pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

ron.dittmer Thank you for such a detailed post, I will have to reread it this weekend. Thanks for all the time it must have taken, I really appreciate it.
...........Bill T


2005 Quad 3500,Cummins, NV5600, 4x4,SRW, LWB, Laramie, H pkg, Supplemental air bags, 3.73 LSD, Tow pkg, Heated Leather,Nav & U-Connect,Almond/Taupe,

Bedrug, 70 gal TransferFlow,Caravan shell, Husky mudflaps,

2000 Nash 22G, Double Gauchos, Charge Wizard

ron.dittmer

North-East Illinois

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Posted: 09/18/20 05:32am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

abdiver wrote:

ron.dittmer Thank you for such a detailed post, I will have to reread it this weekend. Thanks for all the time it must have taken, I really appreciate it.
...........Bill T
You are very welcome, but don't give me too much credit. I didn't write it exclusively for you. [emoticon] I initially wrote it many years ago and maintain/update/expound upon it as needed. It's very easy to copy and paste.

Ron Dittmer

Bordercollie

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Posted: 09/18/20 03:06pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

It is nice to have the "best" or as good as you can afford or feel comfortable in spending the money for. It's difficult to know which brands/models to stay away from but most brands are of reasonably good materials and workmanship to be able to sell. I suspect that some manufacturers hire unskilled labor, use spot checks of assembly quality, and do not functionally test appliances and devices for proper operation before delivery to dealers. Dealer service departments are often backlogged negotiating with manufacturers for repair costs and correcting new rig defects.

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