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pnichols

The Other California

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Posted: 09/14/20 01:29pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

FWC wrote:

pnichols wrote:


Well ... reading this clip below from the Azimuth Solar Products Si02 webpage
https://azimuthsolarproducts.com/product/12v-108ah-ultra-long-life-battery/ under the "Additional Information" tab:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Battery Type
SiO2 Composite Electrolyte Battery

Nominal Capacity (25°C/77°F)
108 Ah (1296 Wh) @ 20 Hour

Nominal Voltage
12V

Max Charge Current
27A

Max Charge Voltage
14.7V

Internal Resistance (25°C/77°F)
=< 6 m?

Max Discharge Current (25°C/77°F)
800A(5S)

Depth of Discharge
100% DOD

Operational Temperature
-40?C to 65?C (-40?F to 149?F)

Self Discharge
< 1.6% per Month

Life Cycle
3400 Cycles at 40% DOD; 1500 Cycles at 80% DOD; 620 Cycles at 100%
DOD

Dimensions
17.2 x 33 x 22 cm (6.77 x 13 x 8.66")

Weight
31.5 kg (69.4 lbs)

Manufacturer
Soneil International Ltd.

Warranty
2 Years Workmanship
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It sure looks to me like their SiO2 batteries function in a far, far superior way as compared to good old regular lead acid (liquid or AGM) batteries. Crystals are not the same as liquid or liquid absorbed into mats.

Note that the SiO2 batteries can even be discharged to "zero" about 620 times - which I would never think of doing even once, with any battery in my RV - no matter what the chemistry. (Excluding a capacitor battery of course!)

BTW, that maximum charge current of 27A is perfect for us folks with only 130 alternators when underway, and for us drycamping RV folks with only stock converters and very small portable generators.


The spec actually says discharged to 100% DOD (ie pull the full rated capacity out of the battery), not to zero (volts). As I pointed out this claim is not really substantially different from what deep cycle flooded battery manufacturers claim (see the graph I posted earlier with ~500 cycles to 100% DOD). I am not sure I believe either of these claims, just pointing out that the claims are about the same.

Also note that Gell Cells have a sulfuric acid electrolyte solidified with SiO2 (silica), the difference is that these appear to have more SiO2, but the concept is the same.

What spec do you think is far, far better?


Note that I did not say zero with the word "volts" after it. I of course meant zero state of charge.

SiO2 cycle life - as seen in the SOC graphs for it - sure seems quite superior to that of my current high-end deep cycle AGM batteries. Combined with SiO2 cold weather performance and their price - I'm wondering why continue with AGM when mine wear out, or mess with lithiums and their price for only part-time camping use.

BTW, regarding drop-in size RV lithium batteries, take a look inside them to see all the inter-connections inside that gotta stay solid and corrosion-free year of year and vibration after vibration. The number of connections decreases reliability in any piece of electrical equipment or circuit. When are drop-in size lithium RV batteries going to have only three or six large cells?


Phil, 2005 E450 Itasca Spirit 24V

pianotuna

Regina, SK, Canada

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Joined: 12/18/2004

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Posted: 09/14/20 01:51pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

FWC wrote:

I guess I don't follow, if your RV is in storage, why would you be charging your batteries? Lithium doesn't care about sitting at partial states of charge.


Because:

1. I have solar
2. My brother destroyed an LI by freezing it.
3. I use my RV in the -30 to -40 range. Please try to read the whole thread before making replies.


Regards, Don
My ride is a 28 foot Class C, 256 watts solar, 556 amp hours of AGM in two battery banks 12 volt batteries, 3000 watt Magnum hybrid inverter, Sola Basic Autoformer, Microair Easy Start.

3 tons

NV.

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Posted: 09/14/20 02:01pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

I very much applaud the benefits of having many different battery type options, and can certainly appreciate the temp advantage of SiO2 in sub-zero weather, but in terms of Occam’s Razor (marketplace dominance: ‘cost per stated performance’ = value) one might conclude a far more ubiquitous, moderate climate application of SiO2, yet this his not proved to be the case...Just an observation from the lower 48...

3 tons

pianotuna

Regina, SK, Canada

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Posted: 09/14/20 08:50pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

3 tons,

Li are the future. There is one chemistry that can be used and charged at -40

3 tons

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Posted: 09/15/20 01:17am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

pianotuna wrote:

3 tons,

Li are the future. There is one chemistry that can be used and charged at -40


Ha, well the optimist in me predicts that some future innovation will far exceed the utility and value proposition of Li, but in the mean time my plan will simply be to avoid cryogenic landscapes !!

3 tons - in the High Nevada Desert [emoticon]

Itinerant1

Itinerant

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Joined: 05/23/2017

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Posted: 09/15/20 10:46am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

pnichols wrote:

FWC wrote:

pnichols wrote:


Well ... reading this clip below from the Azimuth Solar Products Si02 webpage
https://azimuthsolarproducts.com/product/12v-108ah-ultra-long-life-battery/ under the "Additional Information" tab:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Battery Type
SiO2 Composite Electrolyte Battery

Nominal Capacity (25°C/77°F)
108 Ah (1296 Wh) @ 20 Hour

Nominal Voltage
12V

Max Charge Current
27A

Max Charge Voltage
14.7V

Internal Resistance (25°C/77°F)
=< 6 m?

Max Discharge Current (25°C/77°F)
800A(5S)

Depth of Discharge
100% DOD

Operational Temperature
-40?C to 65?C (-40?F to 149?F)

Self Discharge
< 1.6% per Month

Life Cycle
3400 Cycles at 40% DOD; 1500 Cycles at 80% DOD; 620 Cycles at 100%
DOD

Dimensions
17.2 x 33 x 22 cm (6.77 x 13 x 8.66")

Weight
31.5 kg (69.4 lbs)

Manufacturer
Soneil International Ltd.

Warranty
2 Years Workmanship
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It sure looks to me like their SiO2 batteries function in a far, far superior way as compared to good old regular lead acid (liquid or AGM) batteries. Crystals are not the same as liquid or liquid absorbed into mats.

Note that the SiO2 batteries can even be discharged to "zero" about 620 times - which I would never think of doing even once, with any battery in my RV - no matter what the chemistry. (Excluding a capacitor battery of course!)

BTW, that maximum charge current of 27A is perfect for us folks with only 130 alternators when underway, and for us drycamping RV folks with only stock converters and very small portable generators.


The spec actually says discharged to 100% DOD (ie pull the full rated capacity out of the battery), not to zero (volts). As I pointed out this claim is not really substantially different from what deep cycle flooded battery manufacturers claim (see the graph I posted earlier with ~500 cycles to 100% DOD). I am not sure I believe either of these claims, just pointing out that the claims are about the same.

Also note that Gell Cells have a sulfuric acid electrolyte solidified with SiO2 (silica), the difference is that these appear to have more SiO2, but the concept is the same.

What spec do you think is far, far better?


Note that I did not say zero with the word "volts" after it. I of course meant zero state of charge.

SiO2 cycle life - as seen in the SOC graphs for it - sure seems quite superior to that of my current high-end deep cycle AGM batteries. Combined with SiO2 cold weather performance and their price - I'm wondering why continue with AGM when mine wear out, or mess with lithiums and their price for only part-time camping use.
That sums it up pretty well, as a part time camper the dropin lfp cost doesn't offset the benefits for your needs.

BTW, regarding drop-in size RV lithium batteries, take a look inside them to see all the inter-connections inside that gotta stay solid and corrosion-free year of year and vibration after vibration. The number of connections decreases reliability in any piece of electrical equipment or circuit. When are drop-in size lithium RV batteries going to have only three or six large cells?


Most dropins are sealed batteries and you have to go out of your way to open one up which probably void any warranty it had.

Connection, corrosion and vibrations could be a consideration but I think that's stretching it to worry about or why stop there, vehicles and rvs with electronic and computer components are in the same conditions and even more exposed.

Nominal voltage of the cells are 3.2v which is why they are built 4 series combination for 12.8v nominal, 3 or 6 cells doesn't work out so well for voltage.


12v 500ah (5,120Wh usable) , 20 cells_ 4s5p (GBS LFMP battery system). 8 CTI 160 watt panels (1,280 watts) 2s4p. Panels mounted flat on the roof. Magnum PT100 controller, Magnum 3012 hybrid inverter, ME-ARC 50. Installed 4/2016 been on 24/7/365

pnichols

The Other California

Senior Member

Joined: 04/26/2005

View Profile



Good Sam RV Club Member


Posted: 09/15/20 12:06pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Itinerant1 wrote:

pnichols wrote:

FWC wrote:

pnichols wrote:


Well ... reading this clip below from the Azimuth Solar Products Si02 webpage
https://azimuthsolarproducts.com/product/12v-108ah-ultra-long-life-battery/ under the "Additional Information" tab:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Battery Type
SiO2 Composite Electrolyte Battery

Nominal Capacity (25°C/77°F)
108 Ah (1296 Wh) @ 20 Hour

Nominal Voltage
12V

Max Charge Current
27A

Max Charge Voltage
14.7V

Internal Resistance (25°C/77°F)
=< 6 m?

Max Discharge Current (25°C/77°F)
800A(5S)

Depth of Discharge
100% DOD

Operational Temperature
-40?C to 65?C (-40?F to 149?F)

Self Discharge
< 1.6% per Month

Life Cycle
3400 Cycles at 40% DOD; 1500 Cycles at 80% DOD; 620 Cycles at 100%
DOD

Dimensions
17.2 x 33 x 22 cm (6.77 x 13 x 8.66")

Weight
31.5 kg (69.4 lbs)

Manufacturer
Soneil International Ltd.

Warranty
2 Years Workmanship
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It sure looks to me like their SiO2 batteries function in a far, far superior way as compared to good old regular lead acid (liquid or AGM) batteries. Crystals are not the same as liquid or liquid absorbed into mats.

Note that the SiO2 batteries can even be discharged to "zero" about 620 times - which I would never think of doing even once, with any battery in my RV - no matter what the chemistry. (Excluding a capacitor battery of course!)

BTW, that maximum charge current of 27A is perfect for us folks with only 130 alternators when underway, and for us drycamping RV folks with only stock converters and very small portable generators.


The spec actually says discharged to 100% DOD (ie pull the full rated capacity out of the battery), not to zero (volts). As I pointed out this claim is not really substantially different from what deep cycle flooded battery manufacturers claim (see the graph I posted earlier with ~500 cycles to 100% DOD). I am not sure I believe either of these claims, just pointing out that the claims are about the same.

Also note that Gell Cells have a sulfuric acid electrolyte solidified with SiO2 (silica), the difference is that these appear to have more SiO2, but the concept is the same.

What spec do you think is far, far better?


Note that I did not say zero with the word "volts" after it. I of course meant zero state of charge.

SiO2 cycle life - as seen in the SOC graphs for it - sure seems quite superior to that of my current high-end deep cycle AGM batteries. Combined with SiO2 cold weather performance and their price - I'm wondering why continue with AGM when mine wear out, or mess with lithiums and their price for only part-time camping use.
That sums it up pretty well, as a part time camper the dropin lfp cost doesn't offset the benefits for your needs.

BTW, regarding drop-in size RV lithium batteries, take a look inside them to see all the inter-connections inside that gotta stay solid and corrosion-free year of year and vibration after vibration. The number of connections decreases reliability in any piece of electrical equipment or circuit. When are drop-in size lithium RV batteries going to have only three or six large cells?


Most dropins are sealed batteries and you have to go out of your way to open one up which probably void any warranty it had.

Connection, corrosion and vibrations could be a consideration but I think that's stretching it to worry about or why stop there, vehicles and rvs with electronic and computer components are in the same conditions and even more exposed.

Nominal voltage of the cells are 3.2v which is why they are built 4 series combination for 12.8v nominal, 3 or 6 cells doesn't work out so well for voltage.


Here's how at least one model of 100AH vehicle drop-in LiFePo4 lithium battery is constructed:
https://www.lithiumion-batteries.com/upl........2V%20100AH%20Internal%20Design%20PDF.pdf

That sure looks like a lot of "little batteries" hooked up together with a lot of inter-connections that may/can eventually fail. I don't know if Battle Born LiFePo4 lithium batteries are also built of a bunch of small cells - but I bet they are. We're not talking about printed circuit board or integrated solid state electronics here - but a bunch of physical cylinders that have to be kept in place with secure connections between them year after year. Plus how many of those little individual lithium cells have to fail before the entire battery can no longer function properly?

Four (4) larger 3.2V 100AH LiFePo4 cells in series would make a 12.8V 100AH LiFePo4 battery ... with a lot less inter-connections - very similar in construction and fully charged voltage to good old vibration proof AGM batteries.

However, I'm betting that the technology of LiFePo4 battery cells is such that a large pancake type design - like the plates in lead acid based batteries - is difficult or impossible or unsafe to produce for use in a commercial drop-in vehicle sized lithium based battery. Hence drop-in LiFePo4 vehicle batteries must be made up of a bunch of "kludged together" small cells.

3 tons

NV.

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Joined: 03/13/2009

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Posted: 09/15/20 12:10pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

“ That sums it up pretty well, as a part time camper the dropin lfp cost doesn't offset the benefits for your needs.”

If one’s looking for a Boogieman, they’ll tend to find one behind every tree...

3 tons

pnichols

The Other California

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Joined: 04/26/2005

View Profile



Good Sam RV Club Member


Posted: 09/15/20 12:13pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

3 tons wrote:

“ That sums it up pretty well, as a part time camper the dropin lfp cost doesn't offset the benefits for your needs.”

If one’s looking for a Boogieman, they’ll tend to find one behind every tree...

3 tons


Well ... there's a whole area of engineering that addresses reliability of complex systems ... and what makes up a "complex system" is a whole lot of separate components that all have to function or the whole system fails. [emoticon]

3 tons

NV.

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Posted: 09/15/20 12:38pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

pnichols wrote:

3 tons wrote:

“ That sums it up pretty well, as a part time camper the dropin lfp cost doesn't offset the benefits for your needs.”

If one’s looking for a Boogieman, they’ll tend to find one behind every tree...

3 tons


Well ... there's a whole area of engineering that addresses reliability of complex systems ... and what makes up a "complex system" is a whole lot of separate components that all have to function or the whole system fails. [emoticon]


You might be pointing to say the evolutionary path of the transistor, lap-top computer, or fly by wire commercial airliner, all ‘solid examples’ of how engineering meets these not so insurmountable challenges...I suspect that at this juncture LiFePo4 failure analysis has become a rather mature subject matter as indicated by Lithium batteries aboard Boeing’s own aircraft...JMO

3 tons

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