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wopachop

Who run bartertown

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Posted: 12/23/20 02:11pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Ive been using this style of PWM dimmer for several years inside of RVs and many houses. For the RV i used the battery 12v power. Inside the house you would use a 12v power supply that plugs into an outlet. The best part is they use a remote control. So you can add LED lights to places inside your house or RV that does not have an existing switch. Like up high on potting shelves. Or on top of cabinets. Its nice being able to dim them for night time. 

I made a large order out of china a few years ago and still have a bunch of dimmers and power supplies if anyone is interested. Send me a PM for details. I found a link to them on ebay. Clicked the first link i saw. I got to think someone sells them out of the USA. Back when i bought them i researched a lot and bought from one of the better companies. There are several different factories that build clones of the same unit. I used to correspond with the guys out of china. They thought i was a dealer. But really i was just a DIY guy looking to play around with LEDs. There was a mininum order for the stuff so i ended up with boxes. 

">VMAAOSwQJhUfJSq]https://www.ebay.com/i........lleyes" alt="[emoticon]">VMAAOSwQJhUfJSq

Gdetrailer

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Posted: 12/23/20 02:59pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

wop, dimming it might help, but also might not help and just makes the aggravation a bit less aggravating.

Some folks are very sensitive to the intense brightness in such a small amount of area, some are not.

Sometimes it has more to do with the frequency of the light spectrum.

Sometimes just no explanation and nothing helps other than using indirect light.

Tried replacing some of our Churches lighting with par38 LED replacements, unfortunately the Pastor was not able to work with the glare that comes from LEDs intense front directional light due to having a fixed lens in one eye. Didn't bother me, but bothered him.

Op can simply construct a "shade" that stops the light fixture from being directly seen, reflecting the light more off of the ceiling than being direct.

A very simple and easy fix, shade could be nothing more than some cardboard or light weight thin wood painted white on the reflecting surface and held away from the ceiling just far enough that the fixture cannot be seen and yet allow the light to bounce off of the shade and up to the ceiling. This gives a much softer light without the need for a dimmer.

Sometimes RV direct light ceiling fixtures and especially the modern LED ones that are 5000K and up color temps can be extremely harsh and no amount of dimming can fix that.

I personally dislike LED color temps over 4,300K, I find 5,000K colors to be not only harsh and throws very hard shadows but to me, it takes a lot MORE 5,000K lights to make things as bright as 3,500K-4,300K..

Ran into that yrs ago when 5,000K compact fluorescent bulbs came out.. Relamped garage with a bunch of them and the garage seemed a lot dimmer to me even though the bulbs were twice the wattage and brightness rating of the lower temp CFLs they replaced.. I will not make that same mistake again.

One of the reasons I am not on the LED headlight bandwagon, If someone would come out with more normal 3,500K-4,300K LED headlights, they would find me first in line for them..

wopachop

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Posted: 12/23/20 03:45pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Sorry i should have said the dimmers would work great for rigid LED lights that you hide in spots so that its not directly in your eyes. Ive also used wire to hang them from existing screws in my ceiling. I used the roof vent and had 2 of the 1 meter length pointing upward. Worked great. Took it down for some reason. It looked pretty ghetto but i didnt care. My eyes are very sensitive as well. The ones i have were custom made. I believe they are 4000k. But i had them install resistors to be capable of handling the 14v better.

* This post was edited 12/23/20 03:57pm by wopachop *

wopachop

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Posted: 12/23/20 03:56pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

I put one of them back up real quick. Its not on a dimmer. You can see its simply hanging by 2 wires and uses the roof vent screws. I remember now i removed them when i redid my roof vent cover. Glad to have 1 of them back up. I should put a dimmer on it.

[image]


This one below is in my kitchen but the light is attached with double sided tape and pointed downward. It has the dimmer just hanging there without the box attached. Was a quick test i put up real quick and never finished making it look better with the white box.

[image]

JRscooby

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Posted: 12/23/20 04:14pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Gdetrailer wrote:

For JRScooby and anyone else who thinks that just because you have 12Ga wiring on the 12V lights you can just reuse the 12V wiring I am posting the surprise I found when rehabbing the trailer I had bought..

[image]
[image]Click For Full-Size Image.

What you see is a combination of Romex for 120V circuits and a bunch of "spaghetti" for the 12V circuits.

If you examine the pix well you will notice that a massive amount of 12V spaghetti has a hidden splice inside the wall with one huge wire nut.. That junction was for ALL of the 12V ground connections and came out of the wall as one single 8ga white wire to the converter box.

Further examination you will also notice that a considerable amount of 12V spaghetti wire going up the wall stud is 100% melted together, creating burn marks in the stud..

Something you can't see is just a little more heat while that insulation was burning and the nearby Romex almost compromised, in fact the outside jacket of the Romex was FUSED to the burnt 12V wire. A little more an all of the 12V circuits would have had live 120V on it!

Absolutely non of the original wiring in my trailer was resuable for safety sake.

The previous owner of my trailer did not know just how close they were to having that trailer burn down to the ground (and they may have been in it when it did).

I PLEAD with you folks to NEVER, EVER consider putting 120V on any of the 12V circuits.

If you WANT 120V ceiling lighting, please, run new proper dedicated wiring using proper Romex or conduit and work boxes.. While you can replace a trailer, you cannot ever replace a life lost to a fire or electrical malfunction.


I never said you could just tap in and but high voltage to any circuit. I hate to give any advice about 120V over the 'net, because I can't know the reader's tool or skill set.
If I wanted to replace the ceiling fixtures in my camper, I would first unplug from shore power. Then I would use the volt meter to be sure which side was ground. Then knowing my ground for house 12 is hooked to the frame, I would use my flasher interrupted power supply so I could track the path of the ground wire to where it connects with others. Then repeat for positive side. Would likely need a junction box to splice 120V there.
When you see that many fixtures in homes are on 14 gauge wires, and often longer than what is likely to be in RV, I don't think what I suggest would be a issue.
Now, you posting pictures of factory installed fire hazards is likely a good idea. It might make somebody look at theirs'. Of course, given the average intelligence of Americans, many will "fix" them to be un-usable

RickLight

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Posted: 12/23/20 06:11pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

After 40+ years in lighting I can say a few things.

Dimmers are strongly recommended. There's many types for various drivers and sources. But they won't solve the main issue.

What the OP is requesting is called 'indirect lighting' and is a key technique among architectural designers. Lighting on/under cabinets or hitting walls then bouncing into a room prevents glare. Glare is far more complex than just too much light. Many folks are extremely sensitive to glare. Indirect lighting usually requires large distances which makes RV applications difficult.

Adapting the existing lights beyond adding dimmers is likely to give poor results. I suggest extensive use of LED ribbon strips, dimmed and maybe even color changing. Tuck them into any and every nook or cranny. Even mounting decorative molding hiding up facing strips if needed. I've done coves that way in my own home but not yet in my RV. Being able to add in the factory lighting as desired will give you a very flexible system!

I further suggest some new circuits and wiring maybe with wireless controls, if you can handle the technology. In my rig I have found the lighting circuits are very under loaded. It seems converting to LED didn't involve reducing the circuit count. So tapping power shouldn't cause much trouble, but check anyway.


Rick,

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Gdetrailer

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Posted: 12/23/20 06:19pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

JRscooby wrote:


I never said you could just tap in and but high voltage to any circuit. I hate to give any advice about 120V over the 'net, because I can't know the reader's tool or skill set.
If I wanted to replace the ceiling fixtures in my camper, I would first unplug from shore power. Then I would use the volt meter to be sure which side was ground. Then knowing my ground for house 12 is hooked to the frame, I would use my flasher interrupted power supply so I could track the path of the ground wire to where it connects with others. Then repeat for positive side. Would likely need a junction box to splice 120V there.
When you see that many fixtures in homes are on 14 gauge wires, and often longer than what is likely to be in RV, I don't think what I suggest would be a issue.
Now, you posting pictures of factory installed fire hazards is likely a good idea. It might make somebody look at theirs'. Of course, given the average intelligence of Americans, many will "fix" them to be un-usable


My point is number one, you CAN'T do what you are saying, period.

12V wiring does not include enough wires for proper hot, Neutral and safety ground.

12V wiring contains MANY hidden splices and junctions as you can plainly see in that photo I posted, the 12V wiring has multiple splices in that big bundle of spaghetti which was hidden between the inside paneling and the outside siding. I my case EVERY 12V ground cam back to that bundle hidden inside the wall. There is zero chance of anyone isolating ANY of the 12V ground circuits unless they bust the wall open..

Also in that photo, you will plainly see a lone black wire trailing off towards the bottom left of the photo.. That wire HAD NO "companion" ground wire run with it and once again, a totally hidden crimp splice which clearly will never pass the sniff test for 120V..

Granted, some manufacturers may bundle the 12V ground outside the wall but you still have to do a considerable amount of difficult detective work to find every single start and stopping point of all the 12V wires. Many times the 12V grounds are mixed, switched or shared with OTHER 12V circuits. Mine had a mix of 5A, 7.5A, 15A, 20A 12V circuits, some of the grounds were shared on several low amperage circuits.

It is far easier, far safer and far quicker to just run some Romex, fish it through the walls and ceilings than it is to try to use a meter or even a circuit finder to locate every connection and isolate it on the 12V side, chances are you will find most of your 12V stuff not working again because you failed to find every junction or you had to disconnect other items that were sharing the wire you needed..

You are welcome to do that to your own RV, but please, don't advise others to do what you are doing.

Yes, many homes are wired with 14Ga wire, no big deal, those homes however unlike your suggestion FOLLOW proper 120V wiring as accepted by the local Electrical inspector and follows the NEC codes to the T for that time of installation. Not a hack job cobbled up wiring setup that you have proposed.

The spaghetti 12V wire that I have removed also did not have proper voltage rating for high voltage 120V usage, was marked as low voltage wiring, something else you are making assumptions on..

wopachop

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Posted: 12/23/20 06:35pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

RickLight wrote:

I suggest extensive use of LED ribbon strips, dimmed and maybe even color changing. Tuck them into any and every nook or cranny.
I agree and also love the color changing lights. Got those suckers in my trailer and all over the house. I really like some of the blueish colors for watching movies at night. Still able to walk around and see snacks to eat.

JRscooby

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Posted: 12/24/20 04:38am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Gdetrailer wrote:

JRscooby wrote:


I never said you could just tap in and but high voltage to any circuit. I hate to give any advice about 120V over the 'net, because I can't know the reader's tool or skill set.
If I wanted to replace the ceiling fixtures in my camper, I would first unplug from shore power. Then I would use the volt meter to be sure which side was ground. Then knowing my ground for house 12 is hooked to the frame, I would use my flasher interrupted power supply so I could track the path of the ground wire to where it connects with others. Then repeat for positive side. Would likely need a junction box to splice 120V there.
When you see that many fixtures in homes are on 14 gauge wires, and often longer than what is likely to be in RV, I don't think what I suggest would be a issue.
Now, you posting pictures of factory installed fire hazards is likely a good idea. It might make somebody look at theirs'. Of course, given the average intelligence of Americans, many will "fix" them to be un-usable


My point is number one, you CAN'T do what you are saying, period.

12V wiring does not include enough wires for proper hot, Neutral and safety ground.


Just for snots and grins, can you explain to my how the electrons, if you don't tell them, will know they are moving thru wires that have been hidden in a ceiling to a lamp, and not running from a outlet to a lamp setting on a table?
A lamp is not the same as a outlet, where you have no idea what will be plugged in

Quote:

12V wiring contains MANY hidden splices and junctions as you can plainly see in that photo I posted, the 12V wiring has multiple splices in that big bundle of spaghetti which was hidden between the inside paneling and the outside siding. I my case EVERY 12V ground cam back to that bundle hidden inside the wall. There is zero chance of anyone isolating ANY of the 12V ground circuits unless they bust the wall open..



Driver turns on lights, and a fuse blows. Before I can put that truck back on the road I have to find every place currant goes to ground where it shouldn't. I have the skill set and tools to find all of them. Now, if it is in the wall, the wall will need to come from together. But I will not be dismantling walls just because wires run behind it.

blaczero

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Posted: 12/24/20 09:59am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

RickLight wrote:

After 40+ years in lighting I can say a few things.

Dimmers are strongly recommended. There's many types for various drivers and sources. But they won't solve the main issue.

What the OP is requesting is called 'indirect lighting' and is a key technique among architectural designers. Lighting on/under cabinets or hitting walls then bouncing into a room prevents glare. Glare is far more complex than just too much light. Many folks are extremely sensitive to glare. Indirect lighting usually requires large distances which makes RV applications difficult.

Adapting the existing lights beyond adding dimmers is likely to give poor results. I suggest extensive use of LED ribbon strips, dimmed and maybe even color changing. Tuck them into any and every nook or cranny. Even mounting decorative molding hiding up facing strips if needed. I've done coves that way in my own home but not yet in my RV. Being able to add in the factory lighting as desired will give you a very flexible system!

I further suggest some new circuits and wiring maybe with wireless controls, if you can handle the technology. In my rig I have found the lighting circuits are very under loaded. It seems converting to LED didn't involve reducing the circuit count. So tapping power shouldn't cause much trouble, but check anyway.


Great ideas from a lot of you so far, thanks to everyone. This forum is really great!

I just ordered 3 sets of 16' LED color changing dimmable strip lights, so we're going to start there. My wife and I went looking for some ideas (possibly just a shade around the light, like someone mentioned)

So again thanks to everyone who takes the time to help others, it's amazing to have this resource!

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