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 > FOB keys and theft

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Sjm9911

New Jersey

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Posted: 02/16/21 10:41am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

JaxDad wrote:

Sjm9911 wrote:

There was an artical out on this recently, and it can happen but it is costly and mostly will happen with high end stuff. It takes the fobs signal and transmits it to a secondary device thats used to unlock and start the car. It dosen't use the autostart. Then they drive off. Some cars apparently can be driven untill they are shut off. I also ran this by some experts who said it happens but not much, if ever in the US.


I think you need to find new ‘experts’ to consult.

In the US I doubt it’s much different than up here in Canada, the insurance bureau recently reported that they figure about 1/3 of all cars stolen today are taken using the ‘relay attack’ method.

They say that in the past 10 years the numbers of new vehicles equipped with keyless technology has risen from 11% to 62%. That’s a pretty significant increase. If you look at the overall vehicle theft numbers as posted by the FBI the numbers had declined for many years, until recently. The numbers increased by nearly 100,000 vehicles per year. I doubt that the 2 facts are unrelated.

BTW, the ‘relay boxes’ need to steal a car this way are about $20 / each on Amazon.


Nope my experts are just that, experts. I work next to newark , nj , and these are the auto task force guys. This is a new thing over here and not used a lot. Maybe you folk up north have criminals with more money and chop shops. But i dought it. I belive the guys working out in the feild over what some insurance guy postulates.


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Posted: 02/16/21 01:15pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

JaxDad wrote:

. . . I was shocked to discover this when I dropped my vehicle off for service work at the dealership, I forgot to put the key through the little depository slot. I stopped in the next morning to bring them the key it was rather surprised that my vehicle was already in the shop and on the hoist being worked on. The service advisor said it merely took them an extra 30 seconds to use their computer to bypass the key system entirely.

As the old saying goes, locks only stop on his people, they barely slow down a thief.
If the dealers have this technology, no doubt this same technology is readily available on the black market. Glad our new 2020 Camry has a real metal key along with the FOB chip. Two layers of security. Dealer would have no choice, but to call us. The metal key for our Camry looks like it was fabricated with a CNC machine--very different from a standard key. No doubt it can be copied by some locksmiths. However, the fact several locksmiths in our area couldn't copy it says something.

wapiticountry

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Posted: 02/16/21 01:29pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Wouldn't the bad guys doing the intercepting need to be fairly close to you in order to intercept the signal as well as be close to the car to identify what the heck they stole the code for in the first place? I doubt they wander around the mall intercepting random codes hoping they catch a Porsche and not a Renault Le Car. The exact time it is best for them to intercept codes is when you exit the car and head into the store. That is the time they can identify the vehicle the code belongs to and have the added advantage of knowing you are not going to report it missing for a period of time since you are shopping. That is also when you would have the key out of your $10.00 Faraday bag so you could lock the door.
For me, investing in good insurance is a much better solution then dime store internet hacks when it comes to protecting my cars. That way I am financially safe no matter how careless I am with my keys.

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Posted: 02/16/21 01:36pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

We wrap ours in aluminum foil in the evenings...

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ktmrfs

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Posted: 02/16/21 02:28pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

otrfun wrote:

JaxDad wrote:

. . . I was shocked to discover this when I dropped my vehicle off for service work at the dealership, I forgot to put the key through the little depository slot. I stopped in the next morning to bring them the key it was rather surprised that my vehicle was already in the shop and on the hoist being worked on. The service advisor said it merely took them an extra 30 seconds to use their computer to bypass the key system entirely.

As the old saying goes, locks only stop on his people, they barely slow down a thief.
If the dealers have this technology, no doubt this same technology is readily available on the black market. Glad our new 2020 Camry has a real metal key along with the FOB chip. Two layers of security. Dealer would have no choice, but to call us. The metal key for our Camry looks like it was fabricated with a CNC machine--very different from a standard key. No doubt it can be copied by some locksmiths. However, the fact several locksmiths in our area couldn't copy it says something.


real key with a chip and keyless go rely on the same system to start the car, a very low power rolling code RFID. a real key adds one more layer of protection, but the keyless go fob's really have TWO separate systems. First one allows the car to be locked, unlocked, sometimes remote started etc. with a reasonably powerful RF signal. But intercepting and controlling that alone will NOT repeat NOT allow one to drive car away. That relies on the SECOND system in the FOB or key a very low power rolling code system and a remote RFID chip. In most cases even if the fob is hanging out the car window the car won't start. Same if the fob is in your jacket in the backseat.

Dealers may have a way to over ride the lack of RFID with the dealer diagnostics, but those systems are expensive and controlled.

Once rolling codes were added to garage door openers, the drive by open the garage door issue basically disappeared.

All that said, Personally I'm not a real fan of keyless go. 3 cars and a truck, 1 with keyless go, others with just regular keys with RFID chips. The keyless go FOB is noticeably larger than the onther remotes, and doesn't add any functions that the other remotes offer. I'd rather drive down the road with the key in the ignition than sitting in my pocket. Security wise Keyless go IMHO has a slight downside in security, lacking the need for a real key, but that is minor with the RFID rolling code security.

As for a duplicate key for your Camry. Did the locksmith say he couldn't cut a key or he couldn't PROGRAM a key? Local locksmiths here and even some ACE hardware stores have no problem cutting a key to match but can't PROGRAM the key.

As long as you have a vehicle with a RFID key, I'd advise going to the dealer and getting a couple of spare keys.

* This post was edited 02/16/21 03:03pm by ktmrfs *


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otrfun

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Posted: 02/16/21 04:10pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

ktmrfs wrote:

otrfun wrote:

JaxDad wrote:

. . . I was shocked to discover this when I dropped my vehicle off for service work at the dealership, I forgot to put the key through the little depository slot. I stopped in the next morning to bring them the key it was rather surprised that my vehicle was already in the shop and on the hoist being worked on. The service advisor said it merely took them an extra 30 seconds to use their computer to bypass the key system entirely.

As the old saying goes, locks only stop on his people, they barely slow down a thief.
If the dealers have this technology, no doubt this same technology is readily available on the black market. Glad our new 2020 Camry has a real metal key along with the FOB chip. Two layers of security. Dealer would have no choice, but to call us. The metal key for our Camry looks like it was fabricated with a CNC machine--very different from a standard key. No doubt it can be copied by some locksmiths. However, the fact several locksmiths in our area couldn't copy it says something.
real key with a chip and keyless go rely on the same system to start the car, a very low power rolling code RFID. a real key adds one more layer of protection, but the keyless go fob's really have TWO separate systems. First one allows the car to be locked, unlocked, sometimes remote started etc. with a reasonably powerful RF signal. But intercepting and controlling that alone will NOT repeat NOT allow one to drive car away. That relies on the SECOND system in the FOB or key a very low power rolling code system and a remote RFID chip. In most cases even if the fob is hanging out the car window the car won't start. Same if the fob is in your jacket in the backseat.

Dealers may have a way to over ride the lack of RFID with the dealer diagnostics, but those systems are expensive and controlled.

Once rolling codes were added to garage door openers, the drive by open the garage door issue basically disappeared.

All that said, Personally I'm not a real fan of keyless go. 3 cars and a truck, 1 with keyless go, others with just regular keys with RFID chips. The keyless go FOB is noticeably larger than the onther remotes, and doesn't add any functions that the other remotes offer. I'd rather drive down the road with the key in the ignition than sitting in my pocket. Security wise Keyless go IMHO has a slight downside in security, lacking the need for a real key, but that is minor with the RFID rolling code security.

As for a duplicate key for your Camry. Did the locksmith say he couldn't cut a key or he couldn't PROGRAM a key? Local locksmiths here and even some ACE hardware stores have no problem cutting a key to match but can't PROGRAM the key.

As long as you have a vehicle with a RFID key, I'd advise going to the dealer and getting a couple of spare keys.
Good to know the keyless FOBs have rolling codes as a 2nd layer of security.

Ref your question about duplicate keys, I contacted two of the more popular locksmiths in town ref getting a 3rd, backup key/FOB made for our '20 Camry. Neither could copy our 2020 Camry key nor program a new FOB. The key is different from a standard tumbler key. It's basically a flat, rectangular block of steel with each flat side (not the edge) CNC'd with a unique jagged pattern.

We ended up purchasing a precut valet-type key/FOB (looks like standard key---no function buttons) from Toyota for use as an emergency key in event of a lock-out or loss while we're away from home. Couldn't get my copy of Techstream to work with the new Camry, so I had to have the new key/FOB programmed at the dealer. When we owned our 2012 Tundra, I was able to purchase a blank key, have it cut by a locksmith, then program it myself using Techstream.

* This post was edited 02/16/21 04:25pm by otrfun *

janer315

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Posted: 07/06/21 06:44am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Thanks for letting me about the Faraday bag! I used many fobs for my apartment and cars and I believe that some fobs are much secure e.g. HID, RFID, etc but these are expensive. Thanks for Minute Fob they brought new technology and now I can make duplicate fobs at my home the price is negotiable for this product but you may contact them at 212-944-1811 to know about the prices.

Wishbone51

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Posted: 07/06/21 01:04pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Any good newer one will have a rotating code. The next code used is based on a secret value that is embedded in the device itself. This is a two-way device, so the receiver has to send an acknowledgement back so they can both go to the next code.

Once you record it, it is too late to use.

One way to break hack it is to steal the keyfob, press the button out of "earshot" of the car, and record the code. Since it was never received and acknowledged, this code is still valid for one time use. They can put the key back, break into the car, and the owner would never suspect how they got in.


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wing_zealot

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Posted: 07/06/21 01:10pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Wishbone51 wrote:

Any good newer one will have a rotating code. The next code used is based on a secret value that is embedded in the device itself. This is a two-way device, so the receiver has to send an acknowledgement back so they can both go to the next code.

Once you record it, it is too late to use.

One way to break hack it is to steal the keyfob, press the button out of "earshot" of the car, and record the code. Since it was never received and acknowledged, this code is still valid for one time use. They can put the key back, break into the car, and the owner would never suspect how they got in.
If your going to steal the keys why would you bother putting them back - you got the car which was the original intent.

Wishbone51

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Posted: 07/06/21 02:03pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

wing_zealot wrote:

If your going to steal the keys why would you bother putting them back - you got the car which was the original intent.

I didn't even realize that someone else brought this up.. I only read page one.

Exactly, regarding why steal it and put it back. Just mentioning that it's not completely infallible, but still pretty darn good.

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