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BCSnob

Middletown, MD

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Posted: 02/18/21 10:04am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Wind makes sense for off grid locations to supplement off grid solar during low/no light situations.

agesilaus

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Posted: 02/18/21 10:09am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

BCSnob wrote:

Wind makes sense for off grid locations to supplement off grid solar during low/no light situations.


No it does not, you never know when the wind will blow so it is undependable and must have a fossil fuel peaking unit to back it up.


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BCSnob

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Posted: 02/18/21 10:13am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

agesilaus wrote:

BCSnob wrote:

Wind makes sense for off grid locations to supplement off grid solar during low/no light situations.


No it does not, you never know when the wind will blow so it is undependable and must have a fossil fuel peaking unit to back it up.
There are a few farms I know where you can count on the wind; one has its own turbine. Have you visited Chicago?

agesilaus

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Posted: 02/18/21 10:30am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

I was stationed near there in the Navy and have avoided the place ever since. A quick check of Chicago wind shows that it manly blows 7 months a year with an average speed of 11 mph. That leave 5 months with little or no wind. I was there in the summer and must hav3 missed the windy period.

Moderator

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Posted: 02/18/21 10:44am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

For goodness sakes, stop the negativity!!!! 7 months is a majority..... we're going to shut this one down, or delete it, if people can't stop being so disagreeable!

BCSnob

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Posted: 02/18/21 10:53am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Being raised in that area, yes you missed the windy periods.
We have wind here most nights in the summer and many days due to geography. Not likely enough to generate base electrical needs but could be a good supplemental source.

agesilaus

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Posted: 02/18/21 11:23am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Moderator wrote:

For goodness sakes, stop the negativity!!!! 7 months is a majority..... we're going to shut this one down, or delete it, if people can't stop being so disagreeable!


Looking up actual data is disagreeable? You lost me on that. I found this:
Quote:

Utility-scale wind power plants require minimum average wind speeds of 6 m/s (13 mph)


So you need that much wind to run one of these turbines. And when they stop running you have to have a fully manned fossil, usually gas turbine, power plant sitting there ready to pick up the load. These are called peaking units which means they can rapidly change their output. Big base loaded units, fossil or nuke, generally do not do well with sudden load changes.
So what this means is if you have 1000 GW of wind power units, you must have 1000 GW of peaking power plant with a full staff sitting there at hot standby ready to pick up the load. In other words you have two power plants, with full staffs, needed to maintain the load needed to meet power demand.
You cannot just push a button and start one of these units from a cold start without staff there ready to get it going. Even gas turbines require some time to start from a cold unit.
But anyway wind less than 13 mph for 5 months means you have to have a fossil unit running for 5 months a year.

MEXICOWANDERER

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Posted: 02/18/21 11:31am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

As a plant design engineer, I can tell all of you that a 50 MW natural gas standby is the most viable option. Nuclear needs a ton on cooling water. Boilers need to be kept warmed but turbine condensate reflux can be recycled. This type of plant is put into STASIS during non critical months and requires a crew of 15 shift operators during seasonal operation. That's not 15 people on duty, it's fifteen people working three shifts.

Grid operation is modular with plants placed solely because of and due to energy consumption density. Grid synchronization is semi automatic. Firebox, med drum, main drum and superheater warmup takes 4 days from stasis startup. Much of the labor is in water treatment, startup aoftening and de oxygenation. The rest is in taking hourly readings and providing intelligent management that no computer can provide. Operational data is sent via satellite no land lines to a grid or intertie processing center.

Depending on methane percentage, emissions from a natural gas plant can be quite small, around 1/1000th that of a conventional coal plant minus scrubbers and precipitate cleaning of particles.

Cooling tower management is simple. Fill with water when needed, treat with chlorine and Nalco chromium as needed.

Water treatment is standard softening with diatomaceous earth and salt. Effluent disposal needs to be addressed.

Energy production is highly condensed in size due to higher speed turbines and generators operating at 600 RPM. Boilers utilize forced draft and forced induction.

About six acres are needed for each plant.
Being modular plants can be paralleled for load demand.

These plants can be safely operated contingent on operator, grid, and intertie integrity.

* This post was edited 02/18/21 11:52am by MEXICOWANDERER *

images

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Posted: 02/18/21 12:00pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:

As a plant design engineer, I can tell all of you that a 250 MW natural gas standby is the most viable option. Nuclear needs a ton on cooling water. Boilers need to be kept warmed but turbine condensate reflux can be recycled. This type of plant is put into STASIS during non critical months and requires a crew of 15 shift operators during seasonal operation. That's not 15 people on duty, it's fifteen people working three shifts.

Grid operation is modular with plants placed solely because of and due to energy consumption density. Grid synchronization is semi automatic. Firebox, med drum, main drum and superheater warmup takes 4 days from stasis startup. Much of the labor is in water treatment, startup aoftening and de oxygenation. The rest is in taking hourly readings and providing intelligent management that no computer can provide. Operational data is sent via satellite no land lines to a grid or intertie processing center.

Depending on methane percentage, emissions from a natural gas plant can be quite small, around 1/1000th that of a conventional coal plant minus scrubbers and precipitate cleaning of particles.

Cooling tower management is simple. Fill with water when needed, treat with chlorine and Nalco chromium as needed.

Water treatment is standard softening with diatomaceous earth and salt. Effluent disposal needs to be addressed.

Energy production is highly condensed in size due to higher speed turbines and generators operating at 600 RPM. Boilers utilize forced draft and forced induction.

About six acres are needed for each plant.
Being modular plants can be paralleled for load demand.

These plants can be safely operated contingent on operator, grid, and intertie integrity.


Fascinating
The the deeper this conversation gets the more interesting it gets.
In other words there is more in play than it appears on the surface, it reminds me of driving into a town after a tornado had destroyed the entire electrical distribution system.
The residents just couldn't understand why it was taking so long to get their power back on as they stared at a tangled mess of poles and wire.


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Posted: 02/18/21 01:05pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

agesilaus wrote:

You can eyeball that from this graph:
[image]
on 2/14
NG was around 8000 GWe/hr
Wind around 2000 GWe/hr
Solar too small to matter

On 2/16 it looks like
NG 6500-7000 GWe/hr
Wind about 500 GWe/hr

The only source that produced steady baseline power was nuke which is the one and only green power source.
Total production dropped from about 14500 to 12000 GWe/hr


Texas lost 25% of their nuclear generating capacity when a reactor at the Matagorda plant dropped off automatically. It's cooling system dropped below minimums. This reactor is located 80 miles South West of Houston.

Texas only lost about 21% of their wind power turbine generating capacity due to any reason. But winter is a low power generation time for wind.

(The standard joke in Texas is that those are not put up to generate power, but are fans to try to cool the temperature during the summer.)

Natural gas generating plants have been a big problem. Wells have not been able to maintain production due to not being winterized. Pipelines and pipeline pumping stations have frozen.

Many coal plants were off-line already due to planned maintenance. (Feb is a cool low demand month normally in Texas.) The operators have had trouble getting them back on-line. If they can get the plant ready to run, the cooling systems in many places were damaged by freezing.

It is a system wide failure to be prepared. No single element is responsible except Poor Planning

The governor's emergency legislation calls for requiring Texas power generation plants to be capable of operating at temps down to ten degrees ABOVE zero.

He doesn't think it necessary to plan for colder temps (because this is a once in a century event) just like it was in 1989 and 2011. True, the entire state was not impacted like this time.

* This post was edited 02/18/21 03:41pm by an administrator/moderator *


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