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Open Roads Forum  >  Tech Issues

 > For BFL13 et al... FLA vs AGM vs Li vs heated Li

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theoldwizard1

SE MI

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Posted: 02/22/21 05:55pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

pianotuna wrote:

What about hot weather testing? Damage on LiFePo4 starts at 86 f, and they should not be charged when the temperature is 113 f.

Lead acid batteries don't like prolong high temps either. Definitely shortens their life.

BFL13

Victoria, BC

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Posted: 02/22/21 06:10pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:

Lasts four times as long?

Warranty half as long?

Ever see Herb's face when Jennifer detailed what she was going to let her date do to her?

The Show was a masterpiece of BS sales parody


Mex, good that you are following all this! Yes, I enjoyed the program at the time, but did not appreciate how clever it really was. Now I wish "if only I knew then what I know now" and all that.

I will try that meter on the battery-engine block trick later when I get the gizmo and report back in that thread. Looks like next week after checking out the seals in the herring run up-Island (priorities!)

* This post was edited 02/22/21 07:58pm by BFL13 *


1. 1991 Oakland 28DB Class C
on Ford E350-460-7.5 Gas EFI
Photo in Profile
2. 1991 Bighorn 9.5ft Truck Camper on 2003 Chev 2500HD 6.0 Gas
See Profile for Electronic set-ups for 1. and 2.

pianotuna

Regina, SK, Canada

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Posted: 02/22/21 09:40pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

theoldwizard1 wrote:

pianotuna wrote:

What about hot weather testing? Damage on LiFePo4 starts at 86 f, and they should not be charged when the temperature is 113 f.

Lead acid batteries don't like prolong high temps either. Definitely shortens their life.


True, however lead acid can be used at 140 f and charged at 120 f--that's a far cry from 86 to 113 f for LiFePo4. There is no question that higher temperatures reduce lifespan.

However, does the BMS for the LiFePo4 shut down charging at 113 f?

* This post was edited 02/22/21 09:55pm by pianotuna *


Regards, Don
My ride is a 28 foot Class C, 256 watts solar, 556 amp hours of AGM in two battery banks 12 volt batteries, 3000 watt Magnum hybrid inverter, Sola Basic Autoformer, Microair Easy Start.

Itinerant1

Itinerant

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Posted: 02/23/21 07:43am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

pianotuna wrote:

theoldwizard1 wrote:

pianotuna wrote:

What about hot weather testing? Damage on LiFePo4 starts at 86 f, and they should not be charged when the temperature is 113 f.

Lead acid batteries don't like prolong high temps either. Definitely shortens their life.


True, however lead acid can be used at 140 f and charged at 120 f--that's a far cry from 86 to 113 f for LiFePo4. There is no question that higher temperatures reduce lifespan.

However, does the BMS for the LiFePo4 shut down charging at 113 f?


The bms will do whatever it's programed to do. Can't speak for every manufacturer out there but here is an example of mine.

GBS Elite CPU/ EMS will disconnect the charge source or loads.
**Over voltage (highest cell is over 3.8V after a 3 second delay)
** Under voltage (lowest cell is below 2.8V after a 30 second delay)
** Over current (current exceeds 10C for 10 seconds)
**Over temperature (highest cell exceeds 150°F or 65°C)
**Under temperature (lowest cell is below 32°F or 0°C, charging is not allowed)
**Ground fault (There is a high voltage leakage greater than 2mA to the chassis pin)
**Unmanaged cells (The programmed number of cells does not equal the number of cells read)

I have been in temps from near 0f to 115f degrees. Reviewing my notes for the past years my highest cell temp has been 84f even when the front compartment was in the mid nineties. Cell temps rise and fall from morning to night and not drastically as one would think by reading comments in posts. From my experience I'll see cell temp rise when charging at 100a after a couple hours and when nearing full before switching to absorb stage, once this period of time completes the cell temps actually cool down some not hang at the high temps.

There are somethings with lfp a person should be aware of and if proper homework is done and common sense is used a person should be able to enjoy the benifit of lfp, they are not faberge eggs some make them out to be.

Quoting web pages isn't really homework unless they have their source posted to see where they're getting the info from. White page as best but then that takes time. Most folks like to be spoon feed and then take it a gospel. [emoticon]


12v 500ah (5,120Wh usable), 20 cells_ 4s5p (GBS LFMP battery system). 8 CTI 160 watt panels (1,280 watts)2s4p,Panels mounted flat. Magnum PT100 SCC, Magnum 3012 hybrid inverter, ME-ARC 50. Installed 4/2016 been on 24/7/365, daily 35-40% DOD 1,600+ cycles.

3 tons

NV.

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Posted: 02/23/21 10:38am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

“ There are somethings with lfp a person should be aware of and if proper homework is done and common sense is used a person should be able to enjoy the benifit of lfp, they are not faberge eggs some make them out to be.”

Well said Sir, a timely bit of ‘reasoned truth’ that would make even Diogenes Proud !!

3 tons

MEXICOWANDERER

las peñas, michoacan, mexico

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Posted: 02/23/21 10:59am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Inappropriately high temperature degrades battery longevity with an alarming acceleration.

Here's a rude, crude, dangerous, but understandable example...

Stick a finger in a beaker of H2S04 sulfuric acid then extract

At 40F the acid will start to burn the skin as it heats up

At 120F you don't want to know. Yes it is that ugly.

It's the same with caustic soda.

This is why I wash lead acid battery corrosion with baking soda, boiling hot water, gloves and goggles. The amplification is to say the least, dramatic.

It is in the best interest of any battery's longevity to have it live in the lower 1/3rd of its Goldilocks' zone

The highest performance is gained in the highest 1/3 of its Goldilocks zone.

Temperature compensation is critical with any battery.

But realize as upper and lower temperature thresholds are approached the voltage and amperage limit issues are not yes/no black and white. They are graduated in effect.

Temperature values taken at electrical post connections give a good clue as to what is happening in the interior. Thermal conductivity is related to electrical conductivity because of electrical conductivity. Pathways are high amperage. Excessive temperature differential between cells is an emergency grade shutdown alarm.

Gjac

Milford, CT

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Posted: 02/23/21 05:44pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

I realize everyone on here has different electrical req's with how they camp. I don't fulltime and don't camp in the winter and have minimal electrical req's. I dry camp don't watch TV or play on the internet, so basically some lights, refer, WH, and water pump. He kept talking about real world experience and did 20 amp discharge test down running MV's to 8 amp tests and then concluded that LI was cheaper over the life cycle of battery usage. What I would have rather seen was low amp draws "real world" how I use my batteries and how long each battery would last. At $900/ battery for lithium and $90 for 6v flooded that is 10 times the cost. Will the LI's last 10 times longer to recover the initial cost?

BFL13

Victoria, BC

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Posted: 02/23/21 05:57pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Gjac wrote:

I realize everyone on here has different electrical req's with how they camp. I don't fulltime and don't camp in the winter and have minimal electrical req's. I dry camp don't watch TV or play on the internet, so basically some lights, refer, WH, and water pump. He kept talking about real world experience and did 20 amp discharge test down running MV's to 8 amp tests and then concluded that LI was cheaper over the life cycle of battery usage. What I would have rather seen was low amp draws "real world" how I use my batteries and how long each battery would last. At $900/ battery for lithium and $90 for 6v flooded that is 10 times the cost. Will the LI's last 10 times longer to recover the initial cost?


No fair using your brain! [emoticon] You must realize that questioning LFPs on this Forum unless you already have them, is like your mother commenting on your new bride's prison tattoos.

Itinerant1

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Posted: 02/23/21 05:57pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

It would be 2 6v to equal a 12v or $180, it's 5x more. For your little use of power it probably is more economical for the upfront cost to stay using lead.

pianotuna

Regina, SK, Canada

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Posted: 02/23/21 06:24pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Gjac wrote:

I realize everyone on here has different electrical req's with how they camp. I don't fulltime and don't camp in the winter and have minimal electrical req's. I dry camp don't watch TV or play on the internet, so basically some lights, refer, WH, and water pump. He kept talking about real world experience and did 20 amp discharge test down running MV's to 8 amp tests and then concluded that LI was cheaper over the life cycle of battery usage. What I would have rather seen was low amp draws "real world" how I use my batteries and how long each battery would last. At $900/ battery for lithium and $90 for 6v flooded that is 10 times the cost. Will the LI's last 10 times longer to recover the initial cost?


The only advantage for you would be never ever having to buy a battery again. Like me, you may be dead before you manage 2800 cycles.

If I camped every weekend, and took the SiO2 that meet my needs to stone bone dead (claim 620 cycles), then I'd reach 80% of oem capacity in only 4340 weeks, or about 83 years.

But, the float life is about 16 to 18 years--and I'll be 89.

My needs are cold weather performance, and enough storage to run an O2 concentrator over night.

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