RV.Net Open Roads Forum: Tow Vehicles: Operational problems with new diesel pickups

RV Blog

  |  

RV Sales

  |  

Campgrounds

  |  

RV Parks

  |  

RV Club

  |  

RV Buyers Guide

  |  

Roadside Assistance

  |  

Extended Service Plan

  |  

RV Travel Assistance

  |  

RV Credit Card

  |  

RV Loans

Open Roads Forum Already a member? Login here.   If not, Register Today!  |  Help

Newest  |  Active  |  Popular  |  RVing FAQ Forum Rules  |  Forum Posting Help and Support  |  Contact  

Search:   Advanced Search

Search only in Tow Vehicles

Open Roads Forum  >  Tow Vehicles

 > Operational problems with new diesel pickups

Reply to Topic  |  Subscribe  |  Print Topic  |  Post New Topic  | 
Page of 8  
Prev  |  Next
Sponsored By:
n0arp

FT

Senior Member

Joined: 08/20/2016

View Profile


Offline
Posted: 04/16/21 08:42pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

ognend wrote:

Hmmm. An F-250 gasser and F-350 gasser (in the SRW version) will almost always be rated for more payload because the gas engine is lighter than the diesel so at least in "legal" ratings with in a particular GVWR it will have more payload. The 7.3L Godzilla gasser Ford comes with the same 10-sp tranny as the equivalent Powerstroke. As far as I am aware, the same axles etc, are in the gassers and diesels up to and including the 1 ton trucks. A lot of the time they get artificially de-rated (on paper) to fit a lesser class of truck. It would not make any sense for the manufacturer to use different axles on an equivalent F-250 or F-350 gasser/diesel trucks. In fact, the "new" 10-sp tranny used by 2020/2021 Ford gasser/diesel offerings is built by GM and there is a rumor of a 10sp 6.6L Chevy gasser for 2022....


You keep using Ford as an example.

I'll take your word on Ford. On Ram, there are three different transmissions, three different transfer cases, and two different rear axles in use for 2019+MY.

It looks like you edited more of your post too, but I'm not going to take the time to go back and edit all my replies.

In summary, it sounds like you had a poor experience with a Powerstroke 6.7 that you bought, and swore off all diesel engines after that.


2021 Ram 5500 Limited 84CA Cummins 4x4 w/ flatbed
2020 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon 2.0T (follow or TC toad)
2015 Keystone Alpine 3730FB 2925W/22.8kWh, 30K multi-split
2016 Arctic Fox 1140 WB 1800W/11.4kWh

ognend

Virginia

Full Member

Joined: 06/25/2011

View Profile



Posted: 04/16/21 08:51pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

jshupe wrote:


I'm not gullible enough to buy a Powerstroke.


People are having the same issues with the new Cummins trucks. In fact, RAM switched back to a CP3 pump. Duramaxes are having the same
issues as well.

jshupe wrote:


Around $10K, but who buys a BMW or any german car without expecting repairs? You can swap both Duramax and Cummins to CP3 if the CP4 keeps you up at night.


I think you are proving yourself what I am saying. You just spent $80K buying a "German" only to spend more thousands on crippling it back to a lesser fuel pump, to protect it from an expensive failure. How about the emissions systems failures? Plenty of those as well.

jshupe wrote:


An argument against a particular fuel pump is not a valid argument against a fuel.


Fuel pump, emissions systems, complexity, cost of ownership....

jshupe wrote:


Buy the right tool for the job. I'm not telling anyone what to buy. I'm saying that the issues with diesel engines are not as common as you portray, and that you fail to acknowledge that some things are bought because they're wanted, not needed.


Above you just told me that you are buying luxury and that people are buying "wants". Now you are telling me to buy the right tool for the job - which is what I have been saying all along. If you are towing < 15-16K lbs and you are doing it casually (like 90% of Americans), 2020+ gassers like the 7.3L Ford or the 6.6L Chevy or even the 6.4L RAM with the new ZF 8-sp tranny are the tool for the job. You can even camp and put away the savings from the diesels into your retirement fund.

jshupe wrote:


They do, but it's not anywhere close. And every one I've towed with has had to scream to utilize it with anything marginally steep or heavy.


However did we tow things back when the "legendary" and "indestructible" diesels didn't have exhaust brakes? [emoticon]

jshupe wrote:


There is a whole lot more to this than payload/GVWR even if you aren't discussing being overweight. Longevity will vary between parts, with the heavier parts usually lasting longer under similar loading. And for those of us who spend a lot of time off-road, the transfer cases and axles are often of great value. I don't want to snap a shaft with a heavy camper while crawling off a small shelf.


Point to an example of a 3/4 ton or 1-ton SRW where the tranny or the axle or whatever is "heavier duty" in a diesel than in an equivalent gasser.


--
2021 Chevrolet 3500 DRW Cab&Chassis crew cab 4x4 6.6L gas with 9ft4" flatbed
2021 Palomino HS-2902 Max truck camper
2007 Double D all steel 2-horse bumper pull trailer

ognend

Virginia

Full Member

Joined: 06/25/2011

View Profile



Posted: 04/16/21 08:53pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

jshupe wrote:


In summary, it sounds like you had a poor experience with a Powerstroke 6.7 that you bought, and swore off all diesel engines after that.


I actually still own the truck. I am just not blind to what is happening in the world of diesel and gas engines [emoticon]

n0arp

FT

Senior Member

Joined: 08/20/2016

View Profile


Offline
Posted: 04/16/21 08:59pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

ognend wrote:

People are having the same issues with the new Cummins trucks. In fact, RAM switched back to a CP3 pump. Duramaxes are having the same issues as well.


You edited the post after my intial reply and made this about a fuel pump. Yeah, so that leaves only Ford shipping CP4s -- which have received incremental year to year improvements, by the way. The majority of your whole argument against diesels is the fuel pump, which falls apart here. Duramax moved away from CP4 in 17, I think.

ognend wrote:

I think you are proving yourself what I am saying. You just spent $80K buying a "German" only to spend more thousands on crippling it back to a lesser fuel pump, to protect it from an expensive failure. How about the emissions systems failures? Plenty of those as well


You grossly overexaggerate the issues.

For the next couple replies, you can have your straws now.

ognend wrote:

However did we tow things back when the "legendary" and "indestructible" diesels didn't have exhaust brakes? [emoticon]


Dangerously, at times. Or Pacbrake.

ognend wrote:

Point to an example of a 3/4 ton or 1-ton SRW where the tranny or the axle or whatever is "heavier duty" in a diesel than in an equivalent gasser.


On Ram, there are three different transmissions, three different transfer cases, and two different rear axles in use for 2019+MY. Don't know about Ford. Generally, diesel parts across the board are strengthened to deal with the additional torque.

n0arp

FT

Senior Member

Joined: 08/20/2016

View Profile


Offline
Posted: 04/16/21 09:07pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

ognend wrote:

Point to an example of a 3/4 ton or 1-ton SRW where the tranny or the axle or whatever is "heavier duty" in a diesel than in an equivalent gasser.


https://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/27474085/

ognend

Virginia

Full Member

Joined: 06/25/2011

View Profile



Posted: 04/17/21 03:25am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

jshupe wrote:


You edited the post after my intial reply and made this about a fuel pump. Yeah, so that leaves only Ford shipping CP4s -- which have received incremental year to year improvements, by the way. The majority of your whole argument against diesels is the fuel pump, which falls apart here. Duramax moved away from CP4 in 17, I think.


The title of this thread is "OPERATIONAL PROBLEMS WITH NEW DIESEL PICKUPS".

I literally listed all the operational problems with 2011-onwards diesel pickups ("new"). I explained the cost of ownership of a "new" diesel pickup vs gasser and how many miles/years it would take to make up the $10K premium of a diesel engine vs a gasser engine. I explained that the new 2020+ gas engines are potent tow-ers with plenty of HP and torque, that can easily satisfy the towing needs of the general - occasional - towing public that tows weights below, let's say 16-18,000 lbs. I also explained that the new gas engines are also much cheaper to operate and maintain and do not suffer from all the drama associated with the new diesels.

IMHO the diesel truck manufacturers have been focusing on the wrong objectives - competing on extra lbs of towing capacity and higher torque. Instead, they should be competing on reliability and quality. But those things are not easy to measure. You can't say "New Duramax is 17.3% more reliable". What is much easier to say is "New Duramax has leading torque in its class, exceeding the competition by 17 ft/lbs of torque and 12 HP". In essence, they are competing on "whose is bigger" and the unwashed masses that are conditioned to lap this up - are lapping it up.

As for your claim that I am overstating the CP4 problems - there are literally millions and millions of trucks out there with a ticking time bomb (the CP4 pump) - all powerstrokes from 2011-2021, Duramaxes from 2011-2016 and Cummins from 2014 and onwards. That's a lot of potentially expensive repairs for a hell of a lot of people. Ford is embroiled in a class action lawsuit, so is GM. RAM is probably next.

You telling me that my beef is with a pump, not a fuel system is silly. Diesels can be great but they are NOT great in millions and millions of vehicles sold in the last 10+ years.

What about emissions systems? Plenty of expensive repairs in that arena as well. Why do you think half of these trucks are deleted, despite the fact that it is illegal to do so?

jshupe wrote:


You grossly overexaggerate the issues.


I could equally say that you are understating the problems.

I could say that your whole premise has been "I am rich and buy what I want and I want a diesel and if you can't afford it, buy a gasser"? Although you also said "buy the right tool for the job". So, one of us must be confused [emoticon]

For most of the fools out there towing, say, 8-15,000 lbs once or twice a month to the local campgrounds within a 500 mile radius and whose trucks otherwise do not work for a living hauling equipment around construction sites etc. - please explain to me why the diesel is the right tool for the job (righter) than the new 2020+ gasser like the 7.3L Ford or the 6.6L Chevy. Esp. at the $10K premium right off the bat and the much higher maintenance/operational cost down the road.

jshupe wrote:


On Ram, there are three different transmissions, three different transfer cases, and two different rear axles in use for 2019+MY. Don't know about Ford. Generally, diesel parts across the board are strengthened to deal with the additional torque.


These are bogus claims, of course. Diesel engine have higher torques so they have strenghtened parts - well, you are explaining why - to deal with higher torques and the heavier weight of the engine. I have never heard of a higher axle or frame or transfer case or anything else failure rate in gassers than in diesel, don't be silly [emoticon]

* This post was last edited 04/17/21 05:31am by ognend *   View edit history

n0arp

FT

Senior Member

Joined: 08/20/2016

View Profile


Offline
Posted: 04/17/21 08:21am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

ognend wrote:

The title of this thread is "OPERATIONAL PROBLEMS WITH NEW DIESEL PICKUPS".

I literally listed all the operational problems with 2011-onwards diesel pickups ("new"). I explained the cost of ownership of a "new" diesel pickup vs gasser and how many miles/years it would take to make up the $10K premium of a diesel engine vs a gasser engine. I explained that the new 2020+ gas engines are potent tow-ers with plenty of HP and torque, that can easily satisfy the towing needs of the general - occasional - towing public that tows weights below, let's say 16-18,000 lbs. I also explained that the new gas engines are also much cheaper to operate and maintain and do not suffer from all the drama associated with the new diesels.

IMHO the diesel truck manufacturers have been focusing on the wrong objectives - competing on extra lbs of towing capacity and higher torque. Instead, they should be competing on reliability and quality. But those things are not easy to measure. You can't say "New Duramax is 17.3% more reliable". What is much easier to say is "New Duramax has leading torque in its class, exceeding the competition by 17 ft/lbs of torque and 12 HP". In essence, they are competing on "whose is bigger" and the unwashed masses that are conditioned to lap this up - are lapping it up.

As for your claim that I am overstating the CP4 problems - there are literally millions and millions of trucks out there with a ticking time bomb (the CP4 pump) - all powerstrokes from 2011-2021, Duramaxes from 2011-2016 and Cummins from 2014 and onwards. That's a lot of potentially expensive repairs for a hell of a lot of people. Ford is embroiled in a class action lawsuit, so is GM. RAM is probably next.

You telling me that my beef is with a pump, not a fuel system is silly. Diesels can be great but they are NOT great in millions and millions of vehicles sold in the last 10+ years.

What about emissions systems? Plenty of expensive repairs in that arena as well. Why do you think half of these trucks are deleted, despite the fact that it is illegal to do so?


My experience owning diesels has been relatively problem free. So have the ownership experiences of most people I know -- I know of several owners, but not of any other HPFP failures.

You keep talking about a fuel pump, but it's both easy to mitigate and easy to avoid. It accounts for a very small amount of actual, real-world issues, it just happens to be a rather loud one that gets lots of attention due to the repair bills. For what it's worth, the 2014-2018 Cummins still used the CP3, they only used CP4 for 2019-2020. I've put 70K+ on CP4s and while I did lose one, it was the exception and not the rule (on a '10, nonetheless). Many people have gone hundreds of thousands of miles on them. They don't all have issues and while dealerships may repair a few a year, the overwhleing majority of trucks with CP4 pumps do not end up in the shop for them. Again, other than on Ford, they're easy to swap out and avoid if they keep you up at night.

You've bought into the "squeaky wheel" arguments and now think every CP4 is a ticking time bomb and that all the emissions systems are going to fail. The people with issues complain loudly - the people without generally don't have as much to say. And very importantly, information and reputations take years to turn around, so you're missing the point that substantial improvements have been made in the last decade. As you were so quick to remind me, we're discussing the "OPERATIONAL PROBLEMS WITH NEW DIESEL PICKUPS".

ognend wrote:

I could equally say that you are understating the problems.

I could say that your whole premise has been "I am rich and buy what I want and I want a diesel and if you can't afford it, buy a gasser"? Although you also said "buy the right tool for the job". So, one of us must be confused [emoticon]

For most of the fools out there towing, say, 8-15,000 lbs once or twice a month to the local campgrounds within a 500 mile radius and whose trucks otherwise do not work for a living hauling equipment around construction sites etc. - please explain to me why the diesel is the right tool for the job (righter) than the new 2020+ gasser like the 7.3L Ford or the 6.6L Chevy. Esp. at the $10K premium right off the bat and the much higher maintenance/operational cost down the road.


Not rich - I have to prioritize my spending and budget just like most other people. This forum is largely dedicated to a leisure activity, so most people here have already made the decision to spend lots of money on things that aren't necessary. You're getting all caught up on a $10K difference in vehicles that cost $60K+ already. The higher the trim, the more marginal the cost is relative to the purchase price. Vehicles are pay to play - I don't think diesel mainteinance costs are that high or out of hand.

I do think they make the experience much better, starting at 7K, and much safer starting at 14K or 10K if you spend a lot of time in the mountains. Those are all loose numbers, but I firmly disagree with your 16-18000lb figures. Most 40' fifth wheels - extremely common now - are much better behind a diesel. My parameters for when a diesel makes sense do not align with yours, which appears to be confusing for you.

As you pointed out, the title of this thread is "OPERATIONAL PROBLEMS WITH NEW DIESEL PICKUPS". The post asks about operational problems - which are greatly exaggerated and you are continuing to push tropes that are more valid about trucks made ten years ago than they are today. The incremental changes they've made each year have greatly improved the situation. It did not ask about money in the original post.

It asked about diesels, for "Towing a 14,000 lb. fiver into the Rockies". As far as I'm concerned, that's fully diesel territory, especially if that's a dry weight.

ognend wrote:

These are bogus claims, of course. Diesel engine have higher torques so they have strenghtened parts - well, you are explaining why - to deal with higher torques and the heavier weight of the engine. I have never heard of a higher axle or frame or transfer case or anything else failure rate in gassers than in diesel, don't be silly [emoticon]


So first, you ask me to point out what trucks come with stronger components with diesel than gas, then essentially retort "of course they do". For lots of people, especially people towing or hauling heavy to boondocking sites, the increased TC and axle strentgh could be important. The difference in shaft diameter or wall thickness could be the difference between a trail rescue or driving out. The axle on my 6.7HO is monstrous compared to the gas rear end and as a side effect, I am a lot more confident about its strength when asked to crawl over things with a 5K+ camper on it. I ask a lot from my vehicles and am always breaking things - but I'm breaking far less on my diesels.

rhagfo

Portland, OR

Senior Member

Joined: 07/06/2012

View Profile



Good Sam RV Club Member

Offline
Posted: 04/17/21 08:37am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Well our 2016 Ram 3500 DRW HO, Aisin and 3.73's we have owned just about 2.5 years, I use good quality DEF (another discussion)and change fuel filters on schedule. we have put 34,000 miles on since purchase, no issues yet.
I think going back to the CP3 was a good choice, and GM uses Denso injection pump. Ford insist on sticking with Bosch 4.2, not a great choice.


Russ & Paula the Beagle Belle.
2016 Ram Laramie 3500 Aisin DRW 4X4 Long bed.
2005 Copper Canyon 293 FWSLS, 32' GVWR 12,360#

"Visit and Enjoy Oregon State Parks"


Devo the dog

Moved out of crazy California

Senior Member

Joined: 05/08/2008

View Profile



Posted: 04/17/21 11:18am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

The truck is so much more than the engine and a fuel pump.

99% of my 2019 RAM 3500 HO DRW is a piece of junk. The other 1% is fine: the engine and CP4 are the only things that haven't had a problem. The rest of the problems still exist because Ram and their dealerships are a joke. I can't even get a safety recall done. LOL. Even the ram customer care agent has become frustrated.

So, my opinion stands: if you want to avoid operational problems: Don't buy a Ram/Dodge/Chrysler/Fiat/Peugeot. If you do, cross your fingers that it won't have a recall (LOL), or it won't have a problem (LOL). If there is a recall or a problem, you're stuck with it because the dealership/factory are a joke and it's unlikely that the recall or the problem will get repaired.

Buy anything else.

Jarlaxle

New England

Senior Member

Joined: 11/18/2006

View Profile


Offline
Posted: 04/17/21 11:53am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

jshupe wrote:

ognend wrote:

Hmmm. An F-250 gasser and F-350 gasser (in the SRW version) will almost always be rated for more payload because the gas engine is lighter than the diesel so at least in "legal" ratings with in a particular GVWR it will have more payload. The 7.3L Godzilla gasser Ford comes with the same 10-sp tranny as the equivalent Powerstroke. As far as I am aware, the same axles etc, are in the gassers and diesels up to and including the 1 ton trucks. A lot of the time they get artificially de-rated (on paper) to fit a lesser class of truck. It would not make any sense for the manufacturer to use different axles on an equivalent F-250 or F-350 gasser/diesel trucks. In fact, the "new" 10-sp tranny used by 2020/2021 Ford gasser/diesel offerings is built by GM and there is a rumor of a 10sp 6.6L Chevy gasser for 2022....


You keep using Ford as an example.

I'll take your word on Ford. On Ram, there are three different transmissions, three different transfer cases, and two different rear axles in use for 2019+MY.


You can get the same Aisin transmission with the 6.4 Hemi that you can get with the Cummins.


John and Elizabeth (Liz), with Briza the size XL tabby
St. Bernard Marm, cats Vierna and Maya...RIP. ">
Current rig:
1992 International Genesis school bus conversion

Reply to Topic  |  Subscribe  |  Print Topic  |  Post New Topic  | 
Page of 8  
Prev  |  Next

Open Roads Forum  >  Tow Vehicles

 > Operational problems with new diesel pickups
Search:   Advanced Search

Search only in Tow Vehicles


New posts No new posts
Closed, new posts Closed, no new posts
Moved, new posts Moved, no new posts

Adjust text size:




© 2021 CWI, Inc. © 2021 Good Sam Enterprises, LLC. All Rights Reserved.