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Open Roads Forum  >  Tow Vehicles

 > Why do you Cummins guys want more gears

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4x4ord

Alberta

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Posted: 04/05/21 11:31am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

^^^^If the 10 speed is responsible for that then you should be able to show a 2021 Cummins getting spanked by a stock 10 speed Duramax .... I think you’ll come up empty handed.


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ShinerBock

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Posted: 04/05/21 12:38pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

FishOnOne wrote:

Here's a crude test of a F350 vs Ram 3500. Torque rise or not the 10 speed delivered the performance for reasons we all should know.

Link


BTW... Towing Just Got Easier!



Very crude. That Aisin doesn't shift fast and the 2-3 gear is very steep and almost sounded like he left off at 6:53 of the video due to how low 3rd gear drops the RPMs Definitely aren't going to win any races with the Aisin. With 4.10 gears at full throttle, going from 2nd to 3rd will drop you almsot 1,000 rpm from about 2,850 to 1,900. That is if the TC locks up. If the TC isn't locked, then you are limited to how effiecnent your TC is at putting engine power to the trans.


Although, I am more concerned about how the trucks do at 90+F temps holding 65 mph while towing at 14k fiver. That is a more useful test for me.

In regards to the 6R140 and 10R140, I am just going based on what I am seeing in Ford ServiceNet. The 10R140 uses the same base shifting controls and engagement as the 6R140 which they had ZF design for them. ZF has been using thius type for years and was the only ones do do so. Ford never used this type of controls before the 6R so in my book they used what they learned from ZF in the 6R and carried it over to the 10R hence for the 6R was the basis for the 10R. They also share many base parts.

* This post was edited 04/05/21 12:58pm by ShinerBock *


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Cummins12V98

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Posted: 04/05/21 01:15pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Shiner you would like my combo. 100 degree weather and 6% grades nothing has ever come close to being hot.


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ShinerBock

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Posted: 04/05/21 01:27pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Cummins12V98 wrote:

Shiner you would like my combo. 100 degree weather and 6% grades nothing has ever come close to being hot.


I am not trying to throw dirt on you trans. It is an industrial workhorse meant to tow and is not known for its quick shifts. It also has a very steep 2-3 so you are not going to win any short distance drag racing battles in it. It is what it is, and it ain't what it ain't.

The other downside to all Ram HD's(including mine) is their torque converter. They are very inefficient when not locked up due to their high stall speed. You are hardly putting any power to the ground until locked. I noticed a huge difference in off-the-line performance when I changed out the stock torque converter to a 15-blade ultra-low stall that put way more power to the ground when not locked.

FishOnOne

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Posted: 04/05/21 01:46pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

4x4ord wrote:

^^^^If the 10 speed is responsible for that then you should be able to show a 2021 Cummins getting spanked by a stock 10 speed Duramax .... I think you’ll come up empty handed.


The Duramax lacks torque to compete with the Cummins


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FishOnOne

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Posted: 04/05/21 01:55pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

ShinerBock wrote:

FishOnOne wrote:

Here's a crude test of a F350 vs Ram 3500. Torque rise or not the 10 speed delivered the performance for reasons we all should know.

Link


BTW... Towing Just Got Easier!



Very crude. That Aisin doesn't shift fast and the 2-3 gear is very steep and almost sounded like he left off at 6:53 of the video due to how low 3rd gear drops the RPMs Definitely aren't going to win any races with the Aisin. With 4.10 gears at full throttle, going from 2nd to 3rd will drop you almsot 1,000 rpm from about 2,850 to 1,900. That is if the TC locks up. If the TC isn't locked, then you are limited to how effiecnent your TC is at putting engine power to the trans.


Although, I am more concerned about how the trucks do at 90+F temps holding 65 mph while towing at 14k fiver. That is a more useful test for me.

In regards to the 6R140 and 10R140, I am just going based on what I am seeing in Ford ServiceNet. The 10R140 uses the same base shifting controls and engagement as the 6R140 which they had ZF design for them. ZF has been using thius type for years and was the only ones do do so. Ford never used this type of controls before the 6R so in my book they used what they learned from ZF in the 6R and carried it over to the 10R hence for the 6R was the basis for the 10R. They also share many base parts.


I believe this crude video again answers the OP question. This isn't about torque converter efficiency, gear shifting, TC lockup, etc... It's about having the right gear for the application and there's almost infinite amount of applications of hills, mountains, load, not lugging the engine, and keeping the engine in it sweet spot which only helps with long term reliability and improved fuel efficiency...etc...etc...

ShinerBock

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Posted: 04/05/21 02:13pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

FishOnOne wrote:



I believe this crude video again answers the OP question. This isn't about torque converter efficiency, gear shifting, TC lockup, etc... It's about having the right gear for the application and there's almost infinite amount of applications of hills, mountains, load, not lugging the engine, and keeping the engine in it sweet spot which only helps with long term reliability and improved fuel efficiency...etc...etc...


My TC inefficiency, steep gear ratio, and slow shifting were in regards to your drag race video. The rest of what you said is basically what I stated in my first post in this thread

Cummins12V98

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Posted: 04/05/21 02:19pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

ShinerBock wrote:

Cummins12V98 wrote:

Shiner you would like my combo. 100 degree weather and 6% grades nothing has ever come close to being hot.


I am not trying to throw dirt on you trans. It is an industrial workhorse meant to tow and is not known for its quick shifts. It also has a very steep 2-3 so you are not going to win any short distance drag racing battles in it. It is what it is, and it ain't what it ain't.

The other downside to all Ram HD's(including mine) is their torque converter. They are very inefficient when not locked up due to their high stall speed. You are hardly putting any power to the ground until locked. I noticed a huge difference in off-the-line performance when I changed out the stock torque converter to a 15-blade ultra-low stall that put way more power to the ground when not locked.


I responded to what you said about temps. You just responded to I have no idea.

You don’t drive an AISIN.

Cummins12V98

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Posted: 04/05/21 02:20pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

FishOnOne wrote:

4x4ord wrote:

^^^^If the 10 speed is responsible for that then you should be able to show a 2021 Cummins getting spanked by a stock 10 speed Duramax .... I think you’ll come up empty handed.


The Duramax lacks torque to compete with the Cummins


But But I thought four more gears was the save all???

bguy

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Posted: 04/05/21 03:28pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

I think the Cummins needs 1 gear.
I can only imagine how it would feel if they could get a CVT to live behind one of these beasts( incl PS and DM ). The engine would go to peak torque and stay there while you would feel as though the hand of God was propelling you forward.


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