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Open Roads Forum  >  Around the Campfire

 > Looks like electric trucks and RVs may be delayed...

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wanderingaimlessly

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Posted: 06/23/21 09:15am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

thomasmnile wrote:

Back to the OP'S point. Rivian, Nikola, & now Lordstown Motors are under a cloud of suspicion. And SPAC'S? Just another game in the Wall Street "casino". And can't forget were it not for selling carbon credits, Tesla wouldn't be profitable. Have read more than one story that Tesla's capital burn is unsustainable, more so since their high margin vehicles (S & X) are not selling as well as they were since introduction of the Model 3 & Y.

The Legacy 3 and foreign automakers may have been late to the party but they may well be the EV survivors when the dust settles.


I think your on point there, especially as the EV's age out, disposal issues, service locations, and as folks watch the deterioration of their range as they age, which will cause more and more traffic problems from cars running out of power while sitting in traffic jams and the batteries cant keep the AC going until traffic starts moving again.
Was just looking this morning, 7000 round trips by semi's on the Alcan through Canada annually. If you believe Musk claims on his semi, 300 mile range base model, and you follow the best rapid charging protocol for an EV, namely try to start charging at 20% and raise the charge to 80%, your looking at charging stations at least every 180 miles, each truck drawing a supposed 2 kwhr per mile, equaling 360 kwhr per fill. And traversing 2400 miles that way on each trip.
Can Canada, (as well as the US after they cross the border) support those power demands just for the commercial traffic? Then add the seasonal use by tourist which was 50 k back in 2019. If they force EV use, infrastructure becomes overwhelming to even measure. And the idea of trucking supplies up to the extreme north be it the Dempster, or to the north slope? It just doesn't seem reasonable to anticipate that type of electrical infrastructure.
I was just researching areas in New Mexico for a possible move there, Many were off grid, how do those folks get by if you take away ICE powered vehicles and equipment?

* This post was edited 06/23/21 09:24am by wanderingaimlessly *

thomasmnile

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Posted: 06/23/21 09:20am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Not all of Lordstown Motors' orders or purchase commitments were bogus. The city of Orlando entered into an agreement with Lordstown to purchase 600 of their pickups for use in various city departments when production began. Don't know if any money changed hands. But seems like the F-150 hybrid or all electric would be a better fit with their rolling power supply capabilities.

wanderingaimlessly

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Posted: 06/23/21 12:21pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

A little trip down memory lane, and a stroll through Google reveals at least some of an answer to a question posed earlier in this thread, as to why so many EV companies seem to be frauds or thieves.
Look back a decade or more.
Fisker was given over a half $BILLION dollars by the US Government to build a new plant for manufacturing electric automobiles, further they were building it in the Then VP's home state of Delaware, they got the free money, and built the plant to create all those green new jobs,,,,,,,in Finland. Morons in DC didnt even bother to specify the plant was to be in the US.
Ener1 got $118 MILLION from the same administration to build batteries for EV's and 2 years later declared bankruptcy,
Likewise Musk and Tesla received over a half $BILLION$ again a gift from the pie in the sky folks who are so very magnanomus with Other Peoples Money.
Grifters and charlatans will always go where the money is the most foolish.

time2roll

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Posted: 06/23/21 12:28pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Tesla paid back the government loans made to the company early and with interest.


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Posted: 06/23/21 01:05pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

time2roll wrote:

Tesla paid back the government loans made to the company early and with interest.


Correct, they paid back a $0.4B loan. They have received $2.4B in subsidies of one kind or another which does not include subsidies paid to their customers for buying their products.


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tommyznr

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Posted: 06/23/21 01:09pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

wanderingaimlessly wrote:


Ener1 got $118 MILLION from the same administration to build batteries for EV's and 2 years later declared bankruptcy,


This is the one that is most glaring. The others at least are producing or attempting to produce a real product. This one had a number of people walk away with boat loads of money.

On edit, I see that Fisker might also ba bankrupt now.

* This post was edited 06/23/21 01:50pm by tommyznr *

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Posted: 06/23/21 01:25pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

tommyznr wrote:

Correct, they paid back a $0.4B loan. They have received $2.4B in subsidies of one kind or another which does not include subsidies paid to their customers for buying their products.
I have never heard of any subsidies that were Tesla specific. All have been available to all companies.

Same for the customer incentives. These are available to all companies. Has stopped for Tesla customers. Many customers of other companies are now collecting the same incentives.

tommyznr

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Posted: 06/23/21 01:43pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

If you know your first statement is true, how do you not know the rest is true?

From an article clearly defending Tesla/Musk:

"Tesla’s total subsidy value according to the data is $2,441,582,590 ($2.44 billion), across 109 “awards” — 82 federal grants and tax credits as well as 27 state and local awards."

Subsidies to EV car buyers are better than direct money to the company but they are a huge reason why Tesla has survived so far.

time2roll

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Posted: 06/23/21 02:38pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Yes and goes on to list many others that have received similar.
Why call out Tesla and not all the others?

For example why was GM not liquidated? When will Ford pay back some loans?

wanderingaimlessly

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Posted: 06/23/21 02:47pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

time2roll wrote:

tommyznr wrote:

Correct, they paid back a $0.4B loan. They have received $2.4B in subsidies of one kind or another which does not include subsidies paid to their customers for buying their products.
I have never heard of any subsidies that were Tesla specific. All have been available to all companies.

Same for the customer incentives. These are available to all companies. Has stopped for Tesla customers. Many customers of other companies are now collecting the same incentives.

On the federal ones, maybe.
But at a state level, he has been a huge beneficiary, and many others have as well, but his propensity to also make loud and bragadoscious claims has gotten a lot of airtime , especially in Ca. where he has based most of his operations, And Ca has handsomely rewarded him with over a Billion in subsidies, and he has now rewarded them, Tesla
Musk was a major donor and fundraiser , and Ca and the Fed kept their side of the bargain with free money for Musk.
And No, every other company does not get the same treatment, you have to line a lot of pockets to get there.

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