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 > EV's I know there are folks better versed than me in here

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Reisender

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Posted: 11/01/21 02:25pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Thermoguy wrote:

Tesla's supplier of batteries are made by Contemporary Amperex Technology Co out of China. The Lithium used comes from mostly China but also South America. The Lithium mines in the US do not supply enough Lithium for cars, so not used by any car battery manufacturer. I have been researching Lithium battery companies for about a year, and this is what I read every time I come across info on EV's.


Tesla battery packs for cars built in the US are built under contract by Panasonic in the Giga factory in Nevada.

Raw materials and some 2170 cells used in the S and X are imported from other countries just like any car manufacturer.

Some new standard range model 3’s can be optioned with an LFP battery pack built in China by CAT.

The Chinese Tesla factory builds Teslas with battery packs and cells from China. Many from CAT.

Tesla exports the majority of the cars it builds in the US. This wouldn’t be possible if Tesla didn’t import raw materials from other countries.

* This post was edited 11/01/21 02:40pm by Reisender *

BenK

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Posted: 11/01/21 05:07pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Kinda sorta for now...but...

Recycling of used Lithium batteries hasn't even hit its stride yet...
https://cen.acs.org/materials/energy-sto........ge/time-serious-recycling-lithium/97/i28
https://cen.acs.org/materials/energy-storage/time-serious-recycling-lithium/97/i28

Then the largest lithium mine in the USA, but hasn't begun to mine yet.
https://investingtrends.com/AWLIF/the-li........epC3szTZeajFKH4nqVzhxJdg59RoC5DMQAvD_BwE
https://investingtrends.com/AWLIF/the-lithium-wars-us-vs-china/?utm_campaign=AWLIF_BF&utm_source=82507&utm_medium=search&gclid=CjwKCAjwoP6LBhBlEiwAvCcthAGakD2FIQz6dTX7G6QT1u5W09repC3szTZeajFKH4nqVzhxJdg59RoC5DMQAvD_BwE


California has a huge potential source and hasn't begun to mine yet
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/........ntain-lithium-for-electric-car-batteries
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2020-11-19/california-s-salton-sea-could-contain-lithium-for-electric-car-batteries

Then there is the Peruvian lithium potential
https://www.mining-technology.com/projects/falchani-lithium-project-puno/
https://www.mining-technology.com/projects/falchani-lithium-project-puno/


At the bottom of the Pacific Ocean are nodules of precious metals
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/arc........2020/01/20000-feet-under-the-sea/603040/
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/01/20000-feet-under-the-sea/603040/


China is the 'current' largest source of lithium and they are playing it very, very well. The general public has taken that hook line and sinker.

Not just lithium either. As the other rare metales are in the contacts and the why so many are researching into using iron or more common metal.


Does anyone remember that we were suppposed to have run out of crude by now? They have been 'finding' new areas all the time. Note that all of the charts/graphs/etc has fine print : "know reserves"...



Thermoguy wrote:

Tesla's supplier of batteries are made by Contemporary Amperex Technology Co out of China. The Lithium used comes from mostly China but also South America. The Lithium mines in the US do not supply enough Lithium for cars, so not used by any car battery manufacturer. I have been researching Lithium battery companies for about a year, and this is what I read every time I come across info on EV's.


Edit...wacky in that the clickable link doesn't work...so use the real address if you want to read those articles


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Reisender

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Posted: 11/01/21 05:49pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

I just read my previous post. A correction.

The 2170 cells are used in the 3 and Y. Made in Nevada.

The 1865 cells are used in the S and X and are imported from Panasonic Japan. The packs are assembled in Nevada.

* This post was edited 11/01/21 06:09pm by Reisender *

Dadoffourgirls

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Posted: 11/02/21 03:11am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Reisender wrote:

...

Tesla exports the majority of the cars it builds in the US. This wouldn’t be possible if Tesla didn’t import raw materials from other countries.


I wish you could back this up with Tesla investor data. Like real SEC reports. Tesla only provides world-wide production and sales information. Tesla does not provide country level data like other vehicle manufactures. Would be


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Reisender

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Posted: 11/02/21 07:16am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Dadoffourgirls wrote:

Reisender wrote:

...

Tesla exports the majority of the cars it builds in the US. This wouldn’t be possible if Tesla didn’t import raw materials from other countries.


I wish you could back this up with Tesla investor data. Like real SEC reports. Tesla only provides world-wide production and sales information. Tesla does not provide country level data like other vehicle manufactures. Would be


Yah. True. Tesla does not report sales by country. Straight up, my numbers come from an investors forum I participate in and the number I gave was for year 2020. Those numbers are derived from adding up sales in other countries and subtracting from total sales. I’m sure they are approximate numbers as there are no official numbers.

I think export numbers for 2021 will probably be considerably lower as Tesla China is now fulfilling a lot of those markets. And in 2022 Tesla Germany will fill a lot of the European market demand. Tesla Texas is expected to cater mainly to North American demand. The hope is that this will trim the 8 month waiting list for cars in North America.

So yes. You are correct. I can not verify those numbers.

Cheers.

Thermoguy

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Posted: 11/02/21 11:18am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

BenK wrote:

Kinda sorta for now...but...

Recycling of used Lithium batteries hasn't even hit its stride yet...
https://cen.acs.org/materials/energy-sto........ge/time-serious-recycling-lithium/97/i28
https://cen.acs.org/materials/energy-storage/time-serious-recycling-lithium/97/i28

Then the largest lithium mine in the USA, but hasn't begun to mine yet.
https://investingtrends.com/AWLIF/the-li........epC3szTZeajFKH4nqVzhxJdg59RoC5DMQAvD_BwE
https://investingtrends.com/AWLIF/the-lithium-wars-us-vs-china/?utm_campaign=AWLIF_BF&utm_source=82507&utm_medium=search&gclid=CjwKCAjwoP6LBhBlEiwAvCcthAGakD2FIQz6dTX7G6QT1u5W09repC3szTZeajFKH4nqVzhxJdg59RoC5DMQAvD_BwE


California has a huge potential source and hasn't begun to mine yet
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/........ntain-lithium-for-electric-car-batteries
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2020-11-19/california-s-salton-sea-could-contain-lithium-for-electric-car-batteries

Then there is the Peruvian lithium potential
https://www.mining-technology.com/projects/falchani-lithium-project-puno/
https://www.mining-technology.com/projects/falchani-lithium-project-puno/


At the bottom of the Pacific Ocean are nodules of precious metals
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/arc........2020/01/20000-feet-under-the-sea/603040/
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/01/20000-feet-under-the-sea/603040/


China is the 'current' largest source of lithium and they are playing it very, very well. The general public has taken that hook line and sinker.

Not just lithium either. As the other rare metales are in the contacts and the why so many are researching into using iron or more common metal.


Does anyone remember that we were suppposed to have run out of crude by now? They have been 'finding' new areas all the time. Note that all of the charts/graphs/etc has fine print : "know reserves"...



Thermoguy wrote:

Tesla's supplier of batteries are made by Contemporary Amperex Technology Co out of China. The Lithium used comes from mostly China but also South America. The Lithium mines in the US do not supply enough Lithium for cars, so not used by any car battery manufacturer. I have been researching Lithium battery companies for about a year, and this is what I read every time I come across info on EV's.


Edit...wacky in that the clickable link doesn't work...so use the real address if you want to read those articles


Thank you for making my point - the resources are not US so, not made in America. And, the environmental hazards with these batteries are huge - so not so green. It will be years before any Lithium is mined in the US due to environmental protection, but in other countries like China, they can strip mine all they want. Same with south America, so many like to call oil production bad for the environment, but the raw minerals for battery production is very bad if not worst.

I have seen that Sodium Ion is a possible future battery for cars. This is much less harmful than Lithium but doesn't hold the power, or requires a larger battery. So, this is a ways off.

Thermoguy

Graham, WA

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Posted: 11/02/21 11:25am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Just to be up front. I think electric vehicles are the future and I would love to have a Tesla. Really like the new F150 if I could get one I would. That being said, I don't believe an electric vehicle is greener than an ICE vehicle. Truly, I think diesel is the greenest - at least before low sulfur diesel.

EV's are in all of our futures. Hopefully, they can tow a large trailer for a long distance so we can all RV.

Also, autonomous vehicles are not that far off. Look at Super Cruise in the new GM trucks, even Ford has self driving - so not long we can sleep or read forums while our cars take us where we need to be.

BenK

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Posted: 11/02/21 12:15pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Thermoguy wrote:

snip...

autonomous vehicles are not that far off.

snip...


Am very afraid that will be the case...

Think about this:

How will the OS handle breaking the law ?

Will the OS allow the vehicle to cross a double/double line when a child runs out into it's path?

A human (me as an example) would do so in an instant after knowing can't stop and the only way to avoid killing that kid is to cross that line.

Would the OS in the oncoming vehicles know what is happening and likewise avoid me? A human drive has to make that decision right now.

There are many more instances of that kind of scenario...

time2roll

Southern California

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Posted: 11/02/21 02:06pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

BenK wrote:

How will the OS handle breaking the law ?

Will the OS allow the vehicle to cross a double/double line when a child runs out into it's path?
Might hit the child. You can swerve all you like, the OS reflex is faster and in the mix of things probably has a far better chance to stop. OS is never distracted.

30,000 people die in these situations every year. If OS could cut that to 10,000 or even 5,000 will we give up OS due to those incidents or continue to make improvements?

People are not exactly perfect even if they think they can swerve into another lane... in reality this does not always happen.


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thomas201

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Posted: 11/02/21 02:52pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

How will a self driving system handle that perfect snow covered road? No tracks, no lines, no plowed ridges? Can it feel the gravel on the right and steer just a hair left? Or keep it just one tire on the gravel berm? Real dense fog? A leaf covered road? The infamous lane and a half roads where I grew up?

Aircraft, in a much tighter controlled environment, still need a pilot, or two.

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