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Open Roads Forum  >  Tow Vehicles

 > EV's I know there are folks better versed than me in here

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Reisender

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Posted: 07/30/21 07:36am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

ktmrfs wrote:

wilber1 wrote:

Dang physics.

Energy density of lithium ion battery 0.37 to 0.95 MJ/kg
Energy density of gasoline 44.0 MJ/kg


gas engine efficiency about 25% at best during a drive cycle. electric motors in the high 90-95 %. + the energy recovered during braking.

so that turns tables to about 5 or 10:1 on a weight basis. still and advantage to a gas engine, but not as dramatic as it first seems.

Key is
1) getting charging tine down to about time to fill a gas car 10-15minutes
2) getting infrastructure to support the charging
3) getting power from non hydrocarbon or carbon sources (coal, NG)_ Thermal efficiency of gas turbine power stations is about 60%, better than internal combustion but still not great.


For what it’s worth, on a typical road trip for us our average Supercharger break/stop is around 10 to15 minutes. Maybe 20 minutes for lunch. We don’t stop to charge, we just charge while we are stopped.

ktmrfs

Portland, Oregon

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Posted: 07/30/21 08:54am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Reisender wrote:

ktmrfs wrote:

wilber1 wrote:

Dang physics.

Energy density of lithium ion battery 0.37 to 0.95 MJ/kg
Energy density of gasoline 44.0 MJ/kg


gas engine efficiency about 25% at best during a drive cycle. electric motors in the high 90-95 %. + the energy recovered during braking.

so that turns tables to about 5 or 10:1 on a weight basis. still and advantage to a gas engine, but not as dramatic as it first seems.

Key is
1) getting charging tine down to about time to fill a gas car 10-15minutes
2) getting infrastructure to support the charging
3) getting power from non hydrocarbon or carbon sources (coal, NG)_ Thermal efficiency of gas turbine power stations is about 60%, better than internal combustion but still not great.


For what it’s worth, on a typical road trip for us our average Supercharger break/stop is around 10 to15 minutes. Maybe 20 minutes for lunch. We don’t stop to charge, we just charge while we are stopped.


yes, that is getting down to about what a typical fuel stop time is when traveling. Now if they had the charging stations at highway rest stops, and a typical charge was 20 minutes or so, it would for us be less time than a fuel stop. rest stop= fuel stop and not on/off the freeway for gas.

While we can go 600+ miles between fuel stops with our truck when not towing we usually stop every 200 miles or so, sometime less at a rest stop and stretch our legs etc. Our car can go almost 500 miles/tank, but again stopping every 2-3 hours at a rest stop and a charge top off would be less overall time than stopping for gas along with rest stops.


2011 Keystone Outback 295RE
2004 14' bikehauler with full living quarters
2015.5 Denali 4x4 CC/SB Duramax/Allison
2004.5 Silverado 4x4 CC/SB Duramax/Allison passed on to our Son!


philh

Belleville MI

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Posted: 07/30/21 05:25pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

250kw? That's a mighty big wire and transformer.

WRT to electric efficiency, did the calculation include the energy needed to charge the battery?

Reisender

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Posted: 07/30/21 06:30pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

philh wrote:

250kw? That's a mighty big wire and transformer.

WRT to electric efficiency, did the calculation include the energy needed to charge the battery?


Yep. Typical Superchargers have 12 to 24 V3 250 KW supercharger stalls with some having over 50. The biggest is/will be Harris ranch in California with over 100 stalls although some of those close to th restaurants are 150 KW stalls. A little slower so you have time to eat.

Some are as small as 6 or 8 stalls like this one in BC Canada,

[image]

Many are 16 stalls like this one at a Flying J in Hope BC

[image]

The bigger ones are 24 or 32 stalls and some are configured as drive thru (but it limits access to a stall when used like this)

[image]

Kettleston on I5 is over 50 stalls but can't remember how many.

[image]

They are building one 3 blocks form our house and FLO (another charge chain) is contracting Tesla to install their DC fast chargers although they are much slower (100 KW) so use a lot less juice. This is not a picture of the one near our place but same configuration. So 16 total stalls, 12 are Tesla and 4 are FLO.

[image]

The amount of supercharger locations in our province will almost double to 40 this year and the amount of Supercharger stalls more than doubled. Non Tesla DC fast chargers have also pretty much doubled in the last 18 months. There is a push on right now to get the groundwork done before the freeze up. The crew working on the one close to us works 7 days a week 12 days a week. Its a roving crew though. The first guys, excavators and concrete etc have already moved on to the next one. Amazing to watch.

wing_zealot

East of the Mississippi

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Posted: 07/30/21 06:34pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Reisender wrote:

We don’t stop to charge, we just charge while we are stopped.
That’s bull, try doing a 600 mile trip sometime without stopping and see what happens. Your stopping one way or the other and there is no other choice. I stop when I want to, your stopping cause you have to, and you have to have special amenities to boot.

Reisender

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Posted: 07/30/21 07:01pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

wing_zealot wrote:

Reisender wrote:

We don’t stop to charge, we just charge while we are stopped.
That’s bull, try doing a 600 mile trip sometime without stopping and see what happens. Your stopping one way or the other and there is no other choice. I stop when I want to, your stopping cause you have to, and you have to have special amenities to boot.


Heh heh. I can't imagine ever doing a 600 mile trip (that's like 900 kilometers) without stopping. But that's just how we roll.

Buy what suits your needs. I'll do the same. In the meantime, we still don't stop to charge, but we always charge while we are stopped. Works for us.

Cheers.

time2roll

Southern California

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Posted: 07/30/21 07:15pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

My F150 goes 175 maybe 200 miles on a tank. A little more range would be nice at times but 600 miles as the base minimum to have a practical tow vehicle is a bit absurd. Why even bother looking at EV threads? Just do your thing and get on with it.


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wing_zealot

East of the Mississippi

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Posted: 07/30/21 07:32pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

It had nothing to do with me - it was all about the bull. But carry on, You undoubtedly got your boots on.
You’re still stopping, you have no other choice, regardless of what kind of gilded frame you want to put around it.

time2roll

Southern California

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Posted: 07/30/21 07:42pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Be happy for the EV crowd.... they do not take a space at your fuel station nor bid the price of your vehicle fuel up any higher.
Win, win right?

free radical

Canada

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Posted: 07/30/21 09:01pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

wanderingaimlessly wrote:

I keep seeing articles like this LA buses 3/4 million dollar vehicles that dont/cant work.
Other articles showing that in hilly areas, the brakes dont work in part from attempts to capture energy stopping function, other cities having problems too, Minnesota
To invest big bucks into one as a personal vehicle , without the ability like these cities to bring back a retired Diesel to handle operation while the electrics are being continually repaired just seems crazy for all but the insanely wealthy.



The largest battery-powered electric bus fleet in North America is Canadian. Toronto's transit system is now running 59 electric buses from three suppliers. And Canadian pioneers such as Toronto offer lessons for other transit systems aiming to transition to greener fleets for the low-carbon economy of the future.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/electric-buses-transit-1.5823166

Imo the clean air is worth it.

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