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Open Roads Forum  >  Tow Vehicles

 > Ultimate payload monster?

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rhagfo

Portland, OR

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Posted: 07/29/21 05:41pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Cummins12V98 wrote:

No one is going to respond directly to my question of how my SAE rear axle rating plus unloaded front axle weight is 1.000# over my 14k GVWR???


Ron,
You make me laugh!
So our axles add up to 6,000 + 9,750 = 15,750# axle capacity to a 14,000# GVWR is 12.5% more axle capacity than GVWR.
Now go back to your Gen 2 Ram 5,200 + 6,084 = 11,284# axle capacity to a 8,800# GVWR or 28.2% more axle capacity than GVWR.
So less cushion on the new truck than the old.[emoticon]


Russ & Paula the Beagle Belle.
2016 Ram Laramie 3500 Aisin DRW 4X4 Long bed.
2005 Copper Canyon 293 FWSLS, 32' GVWR 12,360#

"Visit and Enjoy Oregon State Parks"


blt2ski

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Posted: 07/29/21 06:50pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Ktmrfs
Class 1 is 0-6000 lbs
Class 2a is 6001-8400. Basically an HD class 1.
Class2b 8401-10000 lbs.
Class 3 10,001-14000? Possibly 13500 or 14500. Having a brain fart at the moment.

1 and 2b a generally speaking half ton/15 series trucks. Need to meet stricter emissions, mpg stats etc.
2b/3 trucks have a different emissions, don't need to meet at this time mpg specs.....
Class 4-8 up to 33000 are medium duty, 33k up are typically class 8. Tandem rear axle trucks. There are a few 7s depending upon spec that can legally get to 40,0000 gvwr.

Marty


92 Navistar dump truck, 7.3L 7 sp, 4.33 gears with a Detroit no spin
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dieseltruckdriver

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Posted: 07/29/21 07:00pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Cummins12V98 wrote:

CA Traveler wrote:

GVWR isn't just about dead weight. Consider suspension, brakes, stopping distant, stability when turning/swerving, weather, road conditions etc. Maybe other factors like mfg libiality etc.


GVWR is all about licensing and keeping it in a certain weight class.

And that is ALL it is. Watch your tires weight ratings.


2000 F-250 7.3 Powerstroke
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ktmrfs

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Posted: 07/29/21 07:31pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

blt2ski wrote:

Ktmrfs
Class 1 is 0-6000 lbs
Class 2a is 6001-8400. Basically an HD class 1.
Class2b 8401-10000 lbs.
Class 3 10,001-14000? Possibly 13500 or 14500. Having a brain fart at the moment.

1 and 2b a generally speaking half ton/15 series trucks. Need to meet stricter emissions, mpg stats etc.
2b/3 trucks have a different emissions, don't need to meet at this time mpg specs.....
Class 4-8 up to 33000 are medium duty, 33k up are typically class 8. Tandem rear axle trucks. There are a few 7s depending upon spec that can legally get to 40,0000 gvwr.

Marty


thanks for the detailed info. So it looks like GM moved the 2500 to class 3 since at least with the duramax GVWR is 11,400 ish, pretty much limited by tires/axles as SRW.


2011 Keystone Outback 295RE
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2004.5 Silverado 4x4 CC/SB Duramax/Allison passed on to our Son!


blt2ski

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Posted: 07/29/21 07:41pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Ktmrfs,

Correct to a free on gm 2500s.

I also feel there are a lot of us, myself one. Where the upper end 15 series trucks at not enough, and current 25s basically in the class 3 relm. What's missing is the 8600-9200 gvwr rig with the typical 6000-6400 RA and a 4-5k fa depending upon motor. I'd have no issues with the 4.3 with cylinder shut off getting 19-25 mpg in an 8600 gvwr rig. With an 8 so auto, 373 gears. It would be a sweet rig.

Marty

Grit dog

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Posted: 07/29/21 08:08pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

ktmrfs wrote:



thanks for the detailed info. So it looks like GM moved the 2500 to class 3 since at least with the duramax GVWR is 11,400 ish, pretty much limited by tires/axles as SRW.


Ford did this too. Idk if Dodge has yet or not. Don't actually care what the gvwr of any light duty truck is, because I know what numbers are true and what numbers are false. class rating is like using tire ply terminology. It's general, not specific.
But ya know what?
NOTHING CHANGED, save for maybe some heavier springs, but I'd doubt that even. IDK what changed in vehicle class regs to allow this, but it sure is fun hearing all the weight ninnies blather about how it's "unsafe" to go over 10k on a 3/4 ton and now, BAM! the OEMs have dun done it!


2016 Ram 2500, MotorOps.ca EFIlive tuned, 5” turbo back, 6" lift on 37s
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rjstractor

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Posted: 07/29/21 08:19pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

JRScooby wrote:

I ain't much smarter than a box of rocks, but I would guess there might be other components that limit GWR?
BTW, I don't think I have ever seen a weight tag where the total of axle weights is not greater than GVWR.


On a pickup you won't see that but on commercial trucks you likely will. My former motorhome, a 1998 E450 based C had a RGAWR of 9450 and a FGAWR of 4600 and a GVWR of..... 14050. Those axle weight ratings are lower than those of a 350/3500 series dually pickup yet the GVWR is just over 14K, probably to put it into the class 4 truck group and reduce the emission requirements. Fast forward to today. The new E450 has axles of 9600/5000 and a GVWR of 14500, again lower axle ratings than a new F450 dually, which can be as high as 9900/6000. Yet the GVWR of said truck is only 14000. If this isn't evidence of the OEMs artificially lowering GVWRs of pickup trucks to keep them in a given DOT weight class, I can't imagine what is. If Ford used the same criteria for the F450 pickup (not cab and chassis) as the E450 cutaway its GVWR would be 15,500 or more.

blt2ski

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Posted: 07/29/21 08:29pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Grit dog wrote:

ktmrfs wrote:



thanks for the detailed info. So it looks like GM moved the 2500 to class 3 since at least with the duramax GVWR is 11,400 ish, pretty much limited by tires/axles as SRW.


Ford did this too. Idk if Dodge has yet or not. Don't actually care what the gvwr of any light duty truck is, because I know what numbers are true and what numbers are false. class rating is like using tire ply terminology. It's general, not specific.
But ya know what?
NOTHING CHANGED, save for maybe some heavier springs, but I'd doubt that even. IDK what changed in vehicle class regs to allow this, but it sure is fun hearing all the weight ninnies blather about how it's "unsafe" to go over 10k on a 3/4 ton and now, BAM! the OEMs have dun done it!


Grit, your comment rings a bell back to Friday 9-7-01, Friday before 9-11 if dates wrong. Was sitting in lunchroom/cafeteria of Duramax factory after taking a tour. This GM engineer stood in front of this group of 100+ GM fans and said DONT put 265-7516 tires on you D/A 2500. It will ruin the Ally trans, screw up computer and a bunch of other BS
What comes out two years later? Yep, SW 3500 with "gasp" them no good for nothing 265-7516 tires and it's 6800 grade vs 6100 with the 245 tires on the 2500!
Even engineers can spout BS at times.

Oh, the 285 tires on my truck look great, as does the 2" front Rancho 9200 struts, rear 9200 shocks and a 1500 lb, 1.5" lift add a leaf. Rides better too!

Marty

JRscooby

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Posted: 07/30/21 06:05am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Cummins12V98 wrote:

No one is going to respond directly to my question of how my SAE rear axle rating plus unloaded front axle weight is 1.000# over my 14k GVWR???


Sorry, I kinda thought I did.

Quote:

I ain't much smarter than a box of rocks, but I would guess there might be other components that limit GWR?
BTW, I don't think I have ever seen a weight tag where the total of axle weights is not greater than GVWR



rhagfo wrote:

blt2ski wrote:

rjstractor wrote:

Cummins12V98 wrote:

GVWR is a JOKE!!! Someone please tell me how I can stay at or under 14k when my RAWR is 9,750# and my unloaded front axle weight is 5,250# when they add up to 15k. My solution is to have tonnage enough to cover my 6 tires load.


Even worse with my 2000 F250 diesel, to get to its 6100 lb or so RGAWR without exceeding its 8800 GVWR, I would have to pile all the weight behind the rear axle to unload the front axle from its 4500 lb or so empty weight to under 2800 pounds. Far safer to load the truck at 5500 on the rear, 4500 on the front even though at those weights I'm exceeding the GVWR by 1200 lbs.


Nothing "ILLEGAL" about either of these options. Reality per federal bridge laws, Cummins can go to 32k gvw, 20k on rear 12k or so on FA before being over the FBL standards.
RJ can hit 10-12k on his two axles ALSO before being over wieght per FBLs.
There are other issues that will get them off the road... Wieght will not be an issue, assuming they have the correct paid for tonnage.
Just like I've been pulled over multiple times, been thru DOT scale house upwards of 26000 gvw, I have yet to get an overweight ticket. Even tho door jam tag says gvwr is 18200. By the way, door tag sticker is in OM in my office.

A lot of what others have implied are correct if your going after manufacture warranty performance ratings. Add more options, get a heavier engine, tranny, dual alternators, AC, power windows etc, ALL take away payload, assuming FA and RA have the same numbers. Ext cab also heavier than regular, crew is heaviest yet.
Choose poison, hope it works for you, how you want to use it......

Marty


I find it interesting that a moderator would say that federal bridge laws make it legal to exceed the listed axle and tire ratings on truck.
Once you exceed GVWR you hit a grey area. While axle and tire may be considered legal to some, a lawyer will go after the statement in owners manuals that is is unsafe to exceed any of the weight numbers on the VIN tag.


Well moderator or not, if he knows what his talking about, why shouldn't he say it? The only weight rating that will be enforced on CMVs is the tires. (Now the GVWR will be used to determine if driver has the right class of DL) RVs get less, if any enforcement.
I once paid a lawyer to have a judge explain to a badge carrier the ratings where no reason to waste paper.
My last Pete, had a GCVWR of 80,000. But the state issued a blanket permit, if a load that I could buy a permit to move put my gross 100,000 or less, I did not need to make a call for special permit. And with the right combination of trailers the states will sell permit for weights well above that.
Hauling city weights, with a tandem axle trailer, if my load ticket said 100,000 the weight watcher would not even pull out his scales because he knew my axles would be within tolerance.

blt2ski

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Posted: 07/30/21 07:27am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Scooby
My Navistar the sun of axle capacity is manufactures gvwr. But with this said. Some items like the RA, the 12.2k limit was tires. Axle, springs etc is 16500. Put higher rated tires on it.....
Front axle itself is 6000. Empty 5900....springs 8k, tires initial 7200.
Gvwr per door tag in OM at house, 18200.
I've seen a number of trucks class 5/6 and above where axle totals equal gvwr. BUT the FBL loads take 25-30k RA ratings to 20k or 24k depending upon use on type of truck or trailer...

Marty

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