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Open Roads Forum  >  Tow Vehicles

 > Ultimate payload monster?

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ShinerBock

LVTX

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Posted: 07/30/21 09:08am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

The vehicle classification system has not changed in decades while the vehicles within those classes have. Trucks have outgrown these classifications and limitations yet the manufacturers ratings are restricted by them regardless if the trucks can actually carry more weight. What we call a SRW 350/3500 used to be a class 2b vehicles with a GVWR of under 10k. It would be suicide for vehicle manufacturers to stop making trucks with a GVWR of under 10k due to all of the old laws and regulations that go in affect once you go over 10k.

I think people mistakenly believe that the number in side of the door will tell you what class it is in. This is false. Today, 150/1500 trucks are class 2a, not class 1. Class 250/2500 trucks are in 2b and in class 3 now. You can have a 350/3500 truck de-rated to a class 2b with a GVWR of 10k. A F450 is in class 3, and even some F750's are in class 8. The numbers are just a name of the model and the limitations of vehicles in certain classes has more to do with outdated laws than actual safe carrying ability.

And no, the manufacturers GVWR rating is NOT enforced by the law. Only the registered GVWR and road axle limits are enforced by law.

* This post was edited 08/02/21 06:24am by ShinerBock *


2014 Ram 2500 CTD
Highland Ridge Silverstar 378RBS

BenK

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Posted: 07/30/21 11:04am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Why been saying for years and years...forget the marketing labels and just use the GVWR/GAWR those are real ratings that tell what it is

But...technical numbers don't sell to the masses...and "King of the Hill" stuff sells...

Like a VW towing a 747, or the new F150 EV towing a million pounds...


-Ben Picture of my rig
1996 GMC SLT Suburban 3/4 ton K3500/7.4L/4:1/+150Kmiles orig owner...
1980 Chevy Silverado C10/long bed/"BUILT" 5.7L/3:73/1 ton helper springs/+329Kmiles, bought it from dad...
1998 Mazda B2500 (1/2 ton) pickup, 2nd owner...
Praise Dyno Brake equiped and all have "nose bleed" braking!
Previous trucks/offroaders: 40's Jeep restored in mid 60's / 69 DuneBuggy (approx +1K lb: VW pan/200hpCorvair: eng, cam, dual carb'w velocity stacks'n 18" runners, 4spd transaxle) made myself from ground up / 1970 Toyota FJ40 / 1973 K5 Blazer (2dr Tahoe, 1 ton axles front/rear, +255K miles when sold it)...
Sold the boat (looking for another): Trophy with twin 150's...
51 cylinders in household, what's yours?...

JRscooby

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Posted: 07/31/21 06:08am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

rjstractor wrote:

JRScooby wrote:

I ain't much smarter than a box of rocks, but I would guess there might be other components that limit GWR?
BTW, I don't think I have ever seen a weight tag where the total of axle weights is not greater than GVWR.


On a pickup you won't see that but on commercial trucks you likely will. My former motorhome, a 1998 E450 based C had a RGAWR of 9450 and a FGAWR of 4600 and a GVWR of..... 14050. Those axle weight ratings are lower than those of a 350/3500 series dually pickup yet the GVWR is just over 14K, probably to put it into the class 4 truck group and reduce the emission requirements. Fast forward to today. The new E450 has axles of 9600/5000 and a GVWR of 14500, again lower axle ratings than a new F450 dually, which can be as high as 9900/6000. Yet the GVWR of said truck is only 14000. If this isn't evidence of the OEMs artificially lowering GVWRs of pickup trucks to keep them in a given DOT weight class, I can't imagine what is. If Ford used the same criteria for the F450 pickup (not cab and chassis) as the E450 cutaway its GVWR would be 15,500 or more.


I'm sorry, I have worked with "commercial trucks" trucks most of my life. And I confess, I have not checked the numbers on all that many what is called mid-range (With 5 to 7 on the door) I know of the 4 Fords I owned, all of them total of axle weights was greater than GVWR. ('67? F750, Holmes 600 wrecker, '63 N750, 11ft dump body, '56 F5, 8 ft dump, (mostly toy, but did haul enough to pay for plates, and towed the Bobcat some) and '74 F500, with 10 ft tool body) Most of the trucks, I don't remember all the numbers, but the LT 9000s and the Macks all had 18 fronts and 44,000 tandems (By the time I was buying them I had broke enough parts to go with HD) GVWR was 50-52,000 on them. The '76 Pete, retired oil field rig-up truck, had a 12,000 front, and 52,000 rears, GVWR of 56,000, GCVWR 80,000. (Over the decade I had that truck I up-graded the steer to 20, doubled the frame, added a 20,000 lift axle. Last job we worked, hauling asphalt about 80 miles. Load the truck to just under the 80,000 limit, print a ticket. Pull the pup under the chute, load 15 tons, get a 2nd scale ticket, and work that Cat 1693, 2 stick 5&4 up the back roads. Good times, good money) Had a Freightliner and Pete, both factory set up with 20,20, and 46. Both GVWR of 65,000. A LTL Ford, 20,& 46 GVWR 60,000 (Bed installer added 20 lift axle. My last Pete, a tractor, had 12& 40s, for a 50,000 GVWR.
I have to stand by the idea most trucks the GVWR is less than sum of axles.

noteven

Turtle Island

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Posted: 07/31/21 07:31am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Gas engine
Standard Cab & chassis with Aluma flatbed
Smallest fuel tank
2wd
Rear dools

blt2ski

Kirkland, Wa

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Posted: 07/31/21 09:20am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

noteven wrote:

Gas engine
Standard Cab & chassis with Aluma flatbed
Smallest fuel tank
2wd
Rear dools


Best answer to original question generally speaking. like ALL things great and small, "depends" needs to be thrown into the answer.
If a bed is needed, the typical pickup bed is lightest option. But limited in what it can handle volume or total bed size, like 2 pallets, 3 yds volume of material.
An Aluminum flatbed is best if one needs more volume, more pallet capacity. etc.
Steel frame, wood, steel or plastic wood deck heaviest. But generally speaking, most durable.
No bed, if only hauling say 5w mount trailers.
Bed types etc, is true no matter the truck class size etc.

This is assuming, all the trucks have the SAME FA/RA ratings, WB, options etc.

Marty


92 Navistar dump truck, 7.3L 7 sp, 4.33 gears with a Detroit no spin
00 Chev C2500, V5700, 4L80E, 4.10, base truck, no options!
92 Red-e-haul 12K equipment trailer

Check RV.Net Blogs at: blog.rv.net

Cummins12V98

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Posted: 07/31/21 09:34am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

rhagfo wrote:

Cummins12V98 wrote:

No one is going to respond directly to my question of how my SAE rear axle rating plus unloaded front axle weight is 1.000# over my 14k GVWR???


Ron,
You make me laugh!
So our axles add up to 6,000 + 9,750 = 15,750# axle capacity to a 14,000# GVWR is 12.5% more axle capacity than GVWR.
Now go back to your Gen 2 Ram 5,200 + 6,084 = 11,284# axle capacity to a 8,800# GVWR or 28.2% more axle capacity than GVWR.
So less cushion on the new truck than the old.[emoticon]


My point is HOW CAN I load my rear axle to it's SAE 9,750# and NOT be over my 14k rating? Why have the RAWR then?

The "Cushion" is a false number because of insurance/licensing issues. Why does the F-450 only have a 14k limit?


2015 RAM LongHorn 3500 Dually CrewCab 4X4 CUMMINS/AISIN RearAir 385HP/865TQ 4:10's
37,800# GCVWR "Towing Beast"

"HeavyWeight" B&W RVK3600

2016 MobileSuites 39TKSB3 highly "Elited" In the stable

2007.5 Mobile Suites 36 SB3 29,000# Combined SOLD

Cummins12V98

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Posted: 07/31/21 09:39am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

"Cummins12V98 wrote:

No one is going to respond directly to my question of how my SAE rear axle rating plus unloaded front axle weight is 1.000# over my 14k GVWR???


JRscooby said.......Sorry, I kinda thought I did.


You did but didn't explain why.

Cummins12V98

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Posted: 07/31/21 09:42am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

"Trucks have outgrown these classifications and limitations yet the manufacturers ratings are restricted by them regardless if the trucks can actually carry more weight."

EXACTLY!!!

Cummins12V98

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Posted: 07/31/21 09:47am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

"And no, the manufacturers GVWR rating is NOT enforced by the law. Only the registered GVWR and road axle limits are enforced by law."

Probable true in the US but I "THINK" it is enforced in BC Canada. Someone can correct or confirm this.

I got kicked off a RV Forum because the Moderator did not like me saying the 14k GVWR number is irrelevant if I have proper tonnage.

I am SD licensed. I asked them about my tonnage as they don't specifically have a number. They said my license covers whatever weight I carry within my tires limits.

JRscooby

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Posted: 07/31/21 09:52am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Cummins12V98 wrote:

"Cummins12V98 wrote:

No one is going to respond directly to my question of how my SAE rear axle rating plus unloaded front axle weight is 1.000# over my 14k GVWR???


JRscooby said.......Sorry, I kinda thought I did.


You did but didn't explain why.


As a example, how much will the frame flex?

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