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 > F53 460 Engine runs very poorly when heat soaked

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pilotanpia

North Idaho

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Posted: 10/17/21 12:31pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

MT BOB wrote:

Lots of F53-460 fuel pump problems, and threads,on the net.
2 things you can try,cheap and easy,replace the TFI and the fuel pump relay.
Other things to try- at your risk- when it acts up,1-loosen or remove the fuel cap
2- when it acts up, throw trans in neutral, turn off and restart engine.


I tried the TFI aka Ignition Module which is located on the front apron between the left headlight and radiator. So, not exposed to engine compartment heat. Bottom line, it did not resolve the issue.
Thank you.


Donald L.

Gdetrailer

PA

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Posted: 10/17/21 01:06pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

pilotanpia wrote:

MT BOB wrote:

Lots of F53-460 fuel pump problems, and threads,on the net.
2 things you can try,cheap and easy,replace the TFI and the fuel pump relay.
Other things to try- at your risk- when it acts up,1-loosen or remove the fuel cap
2- when it acts up, throw trans in neutral, turn off and restart engine.


I tried the TFI aka Ignition Module which is located on the front apron between the left headlight and radiator. So, not exposed to engine compartment heat. Bottom line, it did not resolve the issue.
Thank you.


TFI is only one part, there is the ECM (Engine Control Module) which is the "computer" or "brain" that controls ignition timing and fuel delivery to the engine. ECM has predefined fuel and ignition maps and uses a variety of external sensors (some which you have replaced) to determine timing and fuel delivery.. ECMs where often mounted in the engine compartment near the windshield, not sure where it is on a Chassis build.. Failing ECMs can affect engine performance..

Wes Tausend

Bismarck, ND

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Posted: 10/17/21 02:25pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

...

It can't be that hard. But yes, it can be confusing, has happened to all of us... then is simple and obvious when the demon is finally found.

The engine only needs three things to run. Compression, fuel/air and ignition. I guess we could randomly brain-storm and maybe somebody will hit upon a useful idea.

It almost can't be compression. With one caveat I mentioned earlier.

If it has a knock sensor that has an extreme ******-ignition ability, then it could knock and ****** back so far as to kill power, but I can hardly believe it would ****** that much. Unless the computer is in the heat. Or any ignition module, even new does that in your case. EDIT: I see the word r e t a r d starred out above.

So if not the above, that leaves fuel and air. Since there should be a dog-house beside the driver, one could drive without the dog-house and have another observer look for problems on-the-go. Except it may run so cool when open, as to be fine if heat is a contributor. Not that it wouldn't bake the occupants as the whole house heated up. But the problems might be that the throttle body is not opening. Offhand, I can't imagine why not. Can the EGR do anything weird on these engines? It's part of the intake. There isn't a soft rubber intake hose ahead of the throttle/mass-air that can collapse when warm... is there?

Other things that can be done with the dog-house uncomfortably open is to more directly observe what the vacuum is doing when the problem occurs. By more direct I mean it is easier to connect a vacuum shop-gauge directly to a manifold vacuum source. Otherwise one may run a longer vacuum line to the cabin with the dog-house on and also observe a dash-like vacuum gauge.

A similar thing can be done with a fuel pressure gauge. Even an old mechanical oil gauge should be in the range of fuel pressure, or any mechanical water pressure gauge that has a brass bellows. One would want to be be certain that no high pressure (say 45#) fuel leak occurred. I think at least some fuel lines have a built-in fuel-line schrader valve for shop testing. Highway Patrol sometimes tap it (state shop-added valve) for motorists out of gas. It would take a bit of similar jury-rigging to get a non-specific pressure gauge connected. This extreme effort wouldn't make any sense at all until it was insured that the fuel line from the pump and tank was not somehow overheated. Then such a convoluted fuel pressure test becomes a last resort.

Lastly, I should explain how compression can change. You probably have iron heads, but if the steel valve inserts in aluminum heads, as I mentioned earlier in http://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/30288794/gotomsg/30288823.cfm#30288823
come loose, the intake manifold pressure drops to near zero (or ambient) with the throttle open. But even with the throttle wide open, the engine is running under vacuum (or at least some cylinders) when the inserts stick. Some cylinders are 'throttled' by the insert ring following the valve out. When a piston compresses a high vacuum, such as at idle or other port restriction, it forms very little compression. This is the reason the throttle should be jammed open during compression checks, with all the plugs out also of course.

For those that want to understand all modern fuel injection, I highly recommend this book: https://www.ebay.com/itm/384450433528 . Charles (edit: not Fred) Probst helped develop modern F.I. ground up and then taught other Ford engineers how to develop their program introduced in 1988.

Wes

* This post was edited 10/19/21 08:21am by Wes Tausend *


Days spent camping are not subtracted from one's total.
- 2000 Excursion V-10 - 2000 F-250 CC 7.3L V-8
- 2004 Cougar Keystone M-294 RLS, 6140# tare
- Hensley Arrow - Champion 4000w/3500w gen
- Linda, Wes and Quincy the Standard Brown Poodle
...

RLS7201

Beautyful Downtown Gladstone, MO

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Posted: 10/17/21 02:26pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Gdetrailer wrote:

pilotanpia wrote:

MT BOB wrote:

Lots of F53-460 fuel pump problems, and threads,on the net.
2 things you can try,cheap and easy,replace the TFI and the fuel pump relay.
Other things to try- at your risk- when it acts up,1-loosen or remove the fuel cap
2- when it acts up, throw trans in neutral, turn off and restart engine.


I tried the TFI aka Ignition Module which is located on the front apron between the left headlight and radiator. So, not exposed to engine compartment heat. Bottom line, it did not resolve the issue.
Thank you.


TFI is only one part, there is the ECM (Engine Control Module) which is the "computer" or "brain" that controls ignition timing and fuel delivery to the engine. ECM has predefined fuel and ignition maps and uses a variety of external sensors (some which you have replaced) to determine timing and fuel delivery.. ECMs where often mounted in the engine compartment near the windshield, not sure where it is on a Chassis build.. Failing ECMs can affect engine performance..


ECM on OP's chassis is on the inside of the fire wall, just in front of the steering column. Not exposed to engine heat.

Richard


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Gdetrailer

PA

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Posted: 10/17/21 04:16pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

RLS7201 wrote:

Gdetrailer wrote:

pilotanpia wrote:

MT BOB wrote:

Lots of F53-460 fuel pump problems, and threads,on the net.
2 things you can try,cheap and easy,replace the TFI and the fuel pump relay.
Other things to try- at your risk- when it acts up,1-loosen or remove the fuel cap
2- when it acts up, throw trans in neutral, turn off and restart engine.


I tried the TFI aka Ignition Module which is located on the front apron between the left headlight and radiator. So, not exposed to engine compartment heat. Bottom line, it did not resolve the issue.
Thank you.


TFI is only one part, there is the ECM (Engine Control Module) which is the "computer" or "brain" that controls ignition timing and fuel delivery to the engine. ECM has predefined fuel and ignition maps and uses a variety of external sensors (some which you have replaced) to determine timing and fuel delivery.. ECMs where often mounted in the engine compartment near the windshield, not sure where it is on a Chassis build.. Failing ECMs can affect engine performance..


ECM on OP's chassis is on the inside of the fire wall, just in front of the steering column. Not exposed to engine heat.

Richard


Good to know, however, "heat soak" can still apply to the ECM even if is living a a cooler environment. This is especially true if there is failing components inside the ECM (which may be surrounded with potting material which is supposed to reduce vibration and moisture damage to the ECM). If it is potted, it makes heat dissipation of the internal components much slower. Parts tend to heat up faster and stay hotter than they were designed to be at.

OP has a 26 yr old vehicle, fair chance there are failing capacitors, semiconductors or even "cold solder joints" in the ECM at the least..

Op already has changed pretty much every electronic part within the engine compartment without change to the symptoms. ECM is a common part that controls not only ignition but the fuel delivery which will affect engine operation and performance.

I would also suggest taking a look at all of the wiring harness ground connections, not unusual for vehicles of that age to start having failing ground connections and it only takes one corroded ground to foul up the works.

RLS7201

Beautyful Downtown Gladstone, MO

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Posted: 10/17/21 05:04pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

delete

RLS7201

Beautyful Downtown Gladstone, MO

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Posted: 10/17/21 05:11pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Gdetrailer wrote:

RLS7201 wrote:

Gdetrailer wrote:



TFI is only one part, there is the ECM (Engine Control Module) which is the "computer" or "brain" that controls ignition timing and fuel delivery to the engine. ECM has predefined fuel and ignition maps and uses a variety of external sensors (some which you have replaced) to determine timing and fuel delivery.. ECMs where often mounted in the engine compartment near the windshield, not sure where it is on a Chassis build.. Failing ECMs can affect engine performance..


ECM on OP's chassis is on the inside of the fire wall, just in front of the steering column. Not exposed to engine heat.

Richard




Good to know, however, "heat soak" can still apply to the ECM even if is living a a cooler environment. This is especially true if there is failing components inside the ECM (which may be surrounded with potting material which is supposed to reduce vibration and moisture damage to the ECM). If it is potted, it makes heat dissipation of the internal components much slower. Parts tend to heat up faster and stay hotter than they were designed to be at.

OP has a 26 yr old vehicle, fair chance there are failing capacitors, semiconductors or even "cold solder joints" in the ECM at the least..

Op already has changed pretty much every electronic part within the engine compartment without change to the symptoms. ECM is a common part that controls not only ignition but the fuel delivery which will affect engine operation and performance.

I would also suggest taking a look at all of the wiring harness ground connections, not unusual for vehicles of that age to start having failing ground connections and it only takes one corroded ground to foul up the works.


OP's ECM (EEC-IV, catch code MOO0) is not potted. It sits on a heat shield blanket fastened to the fire wall. Yes the Electrolytic Capacitor do fail over time but their failure is prevalent weather hot or cold. Of my 21 years of owning a 95 F53, I've not seen issues with bad solder joints. The Electrolytic Capacitors are the most common issues.

To the OP. Make sure you have a gray Ignition Module. The black ones are for older EFI Fords. Remove the ECM, open its container and look at the ends of the Electrolytic Capacitors. They will be bulging if going bad.

Richard

MEXICOWANDERER

las peƱas, michoacan, mexico

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Posted: 10/17/21 09:21pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

What does code extraction reveal?

Gdetrailer

PA

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Posted: 10/18/21 08:09am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:

What does code extraction reveal?


Mex, a 1995 vintage vehicle would have a very crude ECM with very little diagnostics codes, equivalent to OBD1. Generally with that technology there was a way to short two pins in the diagnostic port then count the MIL light flashes then reference a code chart. Very little data to be had.

1996 was when vehicle manufacturers were required to standardize to OBD2 style ports, but they were not required to fully implement codes for everything at that time so many vehicles up to the early 2000's would have OBD2 ports but the data set was OBD1..

Had a 1993 Ford we bought new, two weeks after taking delivery it started running rough, hard starts and stalling.. No MIL light ever lit.. Back to the dealer.. The dealer ended up having to replace the ECM as a last resort, fixed the problem, never had any isses after that.. It was faulty and couldn't report it's own fault [emoticon]

Wes Tausend

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Posted: 10/19/21 08:14am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

...

One more heat susceptible thing, not related to fuel, was the TFI
(Thick Film Ignition). Ford used it in the 80's and early 90's. I'm not sure if it was used on the 460 engines but it's highly probable.

The short story is I ran into this with a 1990 5.0 engine that worked fine previously, then sat around before it was installed in a hot-rod. The engine consistently ran poorly when hot and was even hard to start.

Usually the fix was to remove the module from it's mounting on the distributor and put new thermal paste between the module and a heat sink on the main distributor body itself. Apparently the thermal paste dried out from either time or inactive use.

Wes

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