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Open Roads Forum  >  Tow Vehicles

 > is running exhaust brake all the time ok?

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blofgren

Surrey, B.C.

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Posted: 11/05/21 11:28pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

cummins2014 wrote:

Cummins12V98 wrote:

Don't think the above applies to the RAM. Anyone know for a fact?



I sure haven't heard anything about brakes being applied along with the exhaust brake on the Rams .


Me neither. And I pretty much guarantee it doesn’t happen with my G56 manual! [emoticon]. I think the guys in the other brands don’t really realize how well the Cummins EB works.


2013 Ram 3500 Megacab DRW Laramie 4x4, 6.7L Cummins, G56, 3.73, Maximum Steel, black lthr, RAM 20k sliding hitch, Retrax, Linex, and a bunch of options incl. cargo camera
2008 Corsair Excella Platinum 34.5 CKTS fifth wheel with winter package & disc brakes

SweetLou

La Quinta, CA USA

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Posted: 11/06/21 05:28am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

rhagfo wrote:

Grit dog wrote:

SweetLou wrote:

Cummins12V98 wrote:

No Idea on a Ford. On my 11 and now 15 RAM every single start I hit the Tow Haul and Exhaust Brake buttons.

I did that too thinking it helps with the longevity of the exhaust brake. My actuator went out at 90K this year.


Your actuator went out, but the vanes didn’t clog up and stick, correct?
2 different things.
I never believed that a vgt needed to run the exhaust brake as the vanes are basically constantly moving anyway. However I was corrected and it makes sense.
When accelerating, the vanes range of motion is much less as they never “close down” to choke off the exhaust. Whereas the exh brake moves the vanes through the rest of their total range of motion because it reduces the % open much more than a base line, no boost condition.


Ram doesn’t use the vanes, it has a sliding ring that creates the back pressure.

Then I stand corrected


2013 3500 Cummins 6.7 Quadcab 4x4 3.73 68FE Trans, 2007 HitchHiker Discover America 329 RSB
We love our Westie


NRALIFR

Let’s Go Girls! [End of Quote]

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Posted: 11/06/21 06:30am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

All variable geometry turbos have movable “nozzle vanes” on the exhaust, or hot side of the turbo. They also all have some mechanical means of moving them in sync with each other, typically a unison ring. They all use one of several types of actuators to move the ring; vacuum, electrical, hydraulic.

This is a view of the Holset VGT turbo used on the Cummins 6.7 L. The movable nozzle vanes are around the outer circumference. Because the VGT nozzle vanes are on the exhaust side, they all are subject to carbon fouling, and can bind or become stuck. Changes to the ECM software have made this less common, but have not eliminated it.

[image]

This is a generic drawing of a VGT, showing both the hot and cold sides, and a vacuum actuator for the nozzle vanes. I like this drawing because it shows the nozzle vanes in different positions. The nozzle vanes primary purpose is to make the turbo more responsive at various speeds. On Diesel engines, they can also be driven closed by the ECM to act as an exhaust brake.

[image]

PS- All of the nozzle actuator types are external to the turbo, so not in the exhaust stream. Each type tends to have their own strengths and weaknesses, and common failure points. Electronic actuators, like on the Holset VGT, tend to fail without much warning or apparent reason. It would take an engineering tear-down and analysis to determine the root cause of early life failures of an electronic actuator. But I would bet that the root cause would NOT be because you either did or did not engage the exhaust brake at every engine start.

[emoticon][emoticon]

* This post was last edited 11/06/21 07:35am by NRALIFR *   View edit history

Cummins12V98

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Posted: 11/06/21 09:39am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

blofgren wrote:

cummins2014 wrote:

Cummins12V98 wrote:

Don't think the above applies to the RAM. Anyone know for a fact?



I sure haven't heard anything about brakes being applied along with the exhaust brake on the Rams .


Me neither. And I pretty much guarantee it doesn’t happen with my G56 manual! [emoticon]. I think the guys in the other brands don’t really realize how well the Cummins EB works.


When towing HEAVY as I do it’s smart to understand the benefits of manually selecting the proper gear along with using cruise control.

Anyone thinking they can hit auto EB and control 36k down a long 6% grade will have a rude awakening.


2015 RAM LongHorn 3500 Dually CrewCab 4X4 CUMMINS/AISIN RearAir 385HP/865TQ 4:10's
37,800# GCVWR "Towing Beast"

"HeavyWeight" B&W RVK3600

2016 MobileSuites 39TKSB3 highly "Elited" In the stable

2007.5 Mobile Suites 36 SB3 29,000# Combined SOLD

Cummins12V98

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Posted: 11/06/21 09:42am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Actuator failure has nothing to do with use or non use of the EB.

blofgren

Surrey, B.C.

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Posted: 11/06/21 10:12am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Cummins12V98 wrote:

blofgren wrote:

cummins2014 wrote:

Cummins12V98 wrote:

Don't think the above applies to the RAM. Anyone know for a fact?



I sure haven't heard anything about brakes being applied along with the exhaust brake on the Rams .


Me neither. And I pretty much guarantee it doesn’t happen with my G56 manual! [emoticon]. I think the guys in the other brands don’t really realize how well the Cummins EB works.


When towing HEAVY as I do it’s smart to understand the benefits of manually selecting the proper gear along with using cruise control.

Anyone thinking they can hit auto EB and control 36k down a long 6% grade will have a rude awakening.


Absolutely; being in the right gear is key with the manual trans too.

Cummins12V98

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Posted: 11/06/21 10:56am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

blofgren wrote:

Cummins12V98 wrote:

blofgren wrote:

cummins2014 wrote:

Cummins12V98 wrote:

Don't think the above applies to the RAM. Anyone know for a fact?



I sure haven't heard anything about brakes being applied along with the exhaust brake on the Rams .


Me neither. And I pretty much guarantee it doesn’t happen with my G56 manual! [emoticon]. I think the guys in the other brands don’t really realize how well the Cummins EB works.


When towing HEAVY as I do it’s smart to understand the benefits of manually selecting the proper gear along with using cruise control.

Anyone thinking they can hit auto EB and control 36k down a long 6% grade will have a rude awakening.


Absolutely; being in the right gear is key with the manual trans too.


So true! I select mine to has close to 3k as I can when descending those long steep grades. Simply a pleasure to feel total control instead of white knuckle!!!

Basically I am treating my auto as a manual trans. Select gear, set Cruise and use the up/down to control speed.

Grit dog

Black Diamond, WA

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Posted: 11/06/21 11:08am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

SweetLou wrote:

Cummins12V98 wrote:

SweetLou wrote:

Cummins12V98 wrote:

No Idea on a Ford. On my 11 and now 15 RAM every single start I hit the Tow Haul and Exhaust Brake buttons.

I did that too thinking it helps with the longevity of the exhaust brake. My actuator went out at 90K this year.


Mine went out early also but that Has nothing to do with the mechanics of the turbo.

no but everything to do with the brake


No, not really. The actuator moves the vanes. Both for brake function and boost functions. Same parts different position depending on function.
Keeping the exh brake engaged is an attempt to keep the mechanism that moves the vanes from sooting up and becoming stuck.
The actuator is the electro mechanical part that pushes and pulls the vanes. Theoretically it would last longer if exhaust brake not used as it wouldn’t cycle as many times or through as much range of motion.
In reality, the actuators sometimes fail at lower than expected hours.


2016 Ram 2500, MotorOps.ca EFIlive tuned, 5” turbo back, 6" lift on 37s
2017 Heartland Torque T29

Grit dog

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Posted: 11/06/21 11:14am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

4x4ord wrote:

ford truck guy wrote:

Grit dog wrote:

Jim-Linda wrote:

Have EB on Cat in FL60. Rig is 25 years old. It has BD exhaust brake that is turned off only on downhills in rolling country, EB will engage when not needed. The only drawback I can see is in city type traffic when EB engages, following vehicles are not aware of truck slowing due to no Brake light. No failures, original disk pads.


But it is a nice feature to get tailgators to back off!

Separate note, I've never checked, but the newer OEM integrated exhaust brakes, do they activate the brake lights when they kick in?
Under the right conditions one can scrub some speed pretty quickly without touching the service brakes.


I looked behind the truck when hooked to the fiver during the last night tow and did NOT see any brake lights on the truck... I can see them light up the front of the fiver compartment door.

That is always my concern as well... I kind of like my rear cap in 1, solid piece



Wihen towing heavy down a steep grade the Ford service brakes come on, if needed, to hold the speed back when cruise control is set. Without cruise set the wheel brakes will be applied at the engine red line to slow the engine down some before automatically releasing. So without cruise control set the computer does what an attentive driver should do. Additionally the Ford system uses the time the brakes are applied and the brake application pressure to calculate an approximate brake temperature. If required a warning will be flashed up to inform the driver of potentially hot brakes.


No kidding? On one hand that is a seriously impressive highly integrated system. Is that all models or trim levels? Do they all have active collision avoidance now? Or do they have a similar system just for the towing function as you described it?

The practical side of me is having trouble accepting that this is a good thing, making vehicle systems even more complicated and allowing even more stupid human trucks to not have the expected affect!

JIMNLIN

Oklahoma

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Posted: 11/07/21 05:19am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

When the new 6.7 Cummins came out in our Dodge trucks, Cummins had a video of how the new fixed vane with a sliding nozzle turbo works in slow motion on the 6.7 engine.
Cummins gave the turbo exhaust braking around 230 hp vs 180 braking hp for my '03 5.9/Jacobs (post turbo) exhaust brake.
The newer gen 6.7 turbo brake may have even more exhaust braking performance.
My '03 truck has 365+ miles on the odo and the Jacobs has work fine with the NV5600 6 speed manual. The Jacobs came with a T handle that mounts on the side of the gear shifter at the top. My hand sits on the shift knob with the first two fingers pulling the EB on...or off.
The truck is 19 years old and I'm still amazed what it can pull easily and gets great mpgs with very little maintenance.


"good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" ............ Will Rogers

'03 2500 QC Dodge/Cummins HO 3.73 6 speed manual Jacobs Westach
'97 Park Avanue 28' 5er 11200 two slides

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