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Open Roads Forum  >  Tow Vehicles

 > Rivian Electric Truck takes on the Ike Gauntlet

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BCSnob

Middletown, MD

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Posted: 01/31/22 07:22pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Interesting tool from DOE

Well-to-wheel emissions

It allows you to select your state to see how that state’s electrical generation mix impacts emissions.

time2roll

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Posted: 01/31/22 07:27pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Maybe we should go back to fueling the trains going cross country with clean coal.
Actually the BigBoy had about the same range as the Rivian when towing. Held 33,000 gallons of water and consumed about 200 gallons per mile.


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FishOnOne

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Posted: 01/31/22 11:18pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

BCSnob wrote:

That hybrid has the same lithium batteries as an EV. EVs have lower emissions than hybrids (see wheel to wheel emissions tool).

I am amazed by the extent of the “can’t do” attitudes in Americans posting here. Good thing engineers, chemist, and manufacturers still have a “can do” attitude.


I'm an electrical engineer with Mfg/Eng experience with years of Lean manufacturing experience. Worked with a chemist for many years to develop marine seismic sensors. Also worked with a team for designing an ocean bottom data acquisition node that used panasonic lithium ion batteries.

Because of my background I'm very critical of this particular vehicle and simply calling a spade a spade.


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Huntindog

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Posted: 02/01/22 01:16am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

BCSnob wrote:

ICE emissions/mile are 100% fossil fuel, by your summation above EV emissions/mile are ~80% fossil fuel. That sounds like a reduction in emissions per mile.

Here is some more reading. Start with this news article then go read the original research.

Analysis: When do electric vehicles become cleaner than gasoline cars?

Quote:

It takes a typical electric vehicle about one year in operation to achieve "carbon parity" with a gasoline vehicle. Although the production of EVs and batteries generates more CO2 before the first wheel turns, the total carbon "footprint" of gas cars quickly overtakes that of EVs after 15,000 miles of driving. If the EV draws electricity from a coal-fired grid, however, the catchup period stretches to more than five years. If the grid is powered by carbon-free hydroelectricity, the catchup period is about six months.


The question you should be asking is if the cradle to grave emissions per mile of an ice is more or less than the cradle to grave emissions per mile for the generation of the charge by a with the current mix of electrical generation.

Second question, which ice puts fuel (and emissions) back in the tank while breaking and coasting down hill?
As for the second question,, according to this test, the regeneration wasn't all that much.

At any rate, we would need charging stations at the bottom and the top of major climbs... And we would need a LOT of them since it takes so long to charge them... Talk about a traffic jam? That would be the mother of them all



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JRscooby

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Posted: 02/01/22 04:36am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Huntindog wrote:


As for the second question,, according to this test, the regeneration wasn't all that much.

At any rate, we would need charging stations at the bottom and the top of major climbs... And we would need a LOT of them since it takes so long to charge them... Talk about a traffic jam? That would be the mother of them all


I was not around then, but when Hank started to sell his Model T, there was a lot of the country where range was a issue.
The "We can't do it" people should pull there head out from between their cheeks, compare what the climate is doing to what scientist, (I know that the thought of scientist be correct hurts the right) told us would happen for the last 40 years.
If we don't change the way we move around, we will need to change the fact we move around. There might be something better than E-cars. If you know what it is, bring it out.

dodge guy

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Posted: 02/01/22 04:43am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

JRscooby wrote:

Huntindog wrote:


As for the second question,, according to this test, the regeneration wasn't all that much.

At any rate, we would need charging stations at the bottom and the top of major climbs... And we would need a LOT of them since it takes so long to charge them... Talk about a traffic jam? That would be the mother of them all


I was not around then, but when Hank started to sell his Model T, there was a lot of the country where range was a issue.
The "We can't do it" people should pull there head out from between their cheeks, compare what the climate is doing to what scientist, (I know that the thought of scientist be correct hurts the right) told us would happen for the last 40 years.
If we don't change the way we move around, we will need to change the fact we move around. There might be something better than E-cars. If you know what it is, bring it out.


Back then all it was was building more gas stations.
Now they need to build an entire new power grid! Yes science is good, but reality is even better, just look at what happened to Texas. And now the NE with power outages. Some gas stations have backup power to offset that. And BTW, how do you think the majority of electricity is generated? Not from unicorns running on a treadmill.
Fact is you can store gasoline or diesel for months with no problem, kind of hard to store electricity unless you are fully off grid with enough solar and batteries to get you through a normal day.


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BCSnob

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Posted: 02/01/22 04:49am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

FishOnOne wrote:

BCSnob wrote:

That hybrid has the same lithium batteries as an EV. EVs have lower emissions than hybrids (see wheel to wheel emissions tool).

I am amazed by the extent of the “can’t do” attitudes in Americans posting here. Good thing engineers, chemist, and manufacturers still have a “can do” attitude.


I'm an electrical engineer with Mfg/Eng experience with years of Lean manufacturing experience. Worked with a chemist for many years to develop marine seismic sensors. Also worked with a team for designing an ocean bottom data acquisition node that used panasonic lithium ion batteries.

Because of my background I'm very critical of this particular vehicle and simply calling a spade a spade.

As a research chemist in industry I know that initial offerings of a new product are improved over time and demand from the buying public. Take for example the initial models from kia and hyundai. Also note that new sources of lithium (besides open pit mining) are being developed due to the increasing demand and prices. If no one ever goes through the process of manufacturing a new product because it’s a “spade” it never gets improved.

BCSnob

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Posted: 02/01/22 05:05am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

There are ways to store energy and then convert it into electricity. An example is using fossil fuel. It’s not about eliminating all fossil fuel use for electrical generation (or transportation), it’s about reducing its use and it’s emissions. A 50% reduction is better than doing nothing. The towing test of the Rivian shows what this embodiment of the EV technology is capable now (not good enough to replace most tow vehicles) and what the manufacturers need to work on. As EVs become more popular the demand for charging stations will increase, and just like franchise owners of fuel stations have seen an opportunity to fill a demand, they or others will see the demand for charging stations and will fill that demand.

The ongoing R&D to increase the range of the batteries will continue because of the demand for this. The ongoing R&D to increase the rate of charging will continue (stations in Europe capable of 15min to full charge).

When the government force to adoption of emission controls on ICEs in the 70s, how many of those vehicles would you have called spades? Have the vehicles improved since then? Would you prefer we had non emission controlled exhausts on all the vehicles on the road now? Owning a 66 Mustang and experiencing its exhaust I can say I wouldn’t.

* This post was last edited 02/01/22 05:25am by BCSnob *   View edit history

lbrjet

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Posted: 02/01/22 06:27am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

BCSnob wrote:

lbrjet wrote:

BCSnob wrote:

ICE emissions/mile are 100% fossil fuel, by your summation above EV emissions/mile are ~80% fossil fuel. That sounds like a reduction in emissions per mile.

Here is some more reading. Start with this news article then go read the original research.

Analysis: When do electric vehicles become cleaner than gasoline cars?

Quote:

It takes a typical electric vehicle about one year in operation to achieve "carbon parity" with a gasoline vehicle. Although the production of EVs and batteries generates more CO2 before the first wheel turns, the total carbon "footprint" of gas cars quickly overtakes that of EVs after 15,000 miles of driving. If the EV draws electricity from a coal-fired grid, however, the catchup period stretches to more than five years. If the grid is powered by carbon-free hydroelectricity, the catchup period is about six months.


The question you should be asking is if the cradle to grave emissions per mile of an ice is more or less than the cradle to grave emissions per mile for the generation of the charge by a with the current mix of electrical generation.

Second question, which ice puts fuel (and emissions) back in the tank while breaking and coasting down hill?


"... with a 54 kilowatt-hour (kWh) battery and a cathode made of nickel, cobalt and aluminum, among other variables."

Don't know much about Tesla batteries but don't they have Lithium in them?


Did you notice that the “among other variables” was a link and at the linked page it lists the variables plugged into the GREET model? These included:
Quote:

EV battery type: Lithium-ion
EV battery size: 54 kilowatt-hours (kWh)
EV battery cathode material: nickel-cobalt-aluminium (NCA)


Thanks.

I have read other studies that I trust more, like MIT, where the payback is longer. The DOE is going to put out the best case scenario and probably ignore a bunch of stuff, like the inflation rate does. I went to college in Normal, and have two kids that live there and hope that Rivian does well. At least they have an actual truck on the road instead of hype.


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BCSnob

Middletown, MD

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Posted: 02/01/22 07:03am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

What about the MIT study makes you trust it more that the study from Argonne National Labs?

Is this the mit study you’re referring to, the one funded by and in collaboration with Ford?
https://news.mit.edu/2019/lightweight-vehicle-electric-emissions-0826

* This post was edited 02/01/22 07:30am by BCSnob *

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