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Open Roads Forum  >  Tow Vehicles

 > Dodge all in on electric too 500 mile range Ram

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wapiticountry

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Posted: 02/17/22 03:01pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

JRscooby wrote:

wapiticountry wrote:

JRscooby wrote:



Stupid question; If a CG is upgrading sites from 30 too 50 Amp, how much extra cost to also add capacity to charge EVs? Bet most have made/are making that change so I assume they have run the numbers and are betting the upcharge for site with upgraded power will pay off.


Electricity costs are negligible. It the cost to upgrade the electrical infrastructure that is going to make RV parks reluctant to fully embrace EVs. I would much rather miss some potential business than come out of pocket with $50,000 or more to upgrade the electrical system when there isn’t a clear need.


You missed the point of my question; A CG has 30 Amp sites, decides they want to have more of the 2 AC units stop instead of going down the road. If they are trenching, and pushing pipe to run the extra wire for the 50 AMP service to sites, how much extra money would it take to also put in charge ports?
I have no idea. It would require more service mains and I don’t know how much addition buying and wiring in charging ports would cost. But how many parks are there that are still 30 amp and also are planning on upgrading. I mean having 50 amp services has been pretty much the standard for several decades. If the haven’t already upgraded it is likely because they can’t due to either financial issues or the power just isn’t available. (More common than you think I’m rural locations).

JRscooby

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Posted: 02/17/22 04:29pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Reisender wrote:


The trenching would be the same. The copper cost would be double if they use the KOA approach of a 40 amp EVSE on each pedestal. But really, this is a 30 year transition. If they put EVSE’s on a third of the pedestals they would probably be covered for the next 20 years.

Jmho. Not an expert.



Just trumping up numbers here, but if the cost of the wire is 20% of the upgrade (likely way high) then doubling that cost would raise the total cost 20%. If the CG thinks the bigger RVs, needing 50 AMP would pay for the upgrade in 5 years, then as long as the EVs pay the extra interest, pay-off is 6. Add the possibility of extra tax bennies, and the chance of using some sites mid-week for short times, just charging EVs


wapiticountry wrote:

I have no idea. It would require more service mains and I don’t know how much addition buying and wiring in charging ports would cost. But how many parks are there that are still 30 amp and also are planning on upgrading. I mean having 50 amp services has been pretty much the standard for several decades. If the haven’t already upgraded it is likely because they can’t due to either financial issues or the power just isn’t available. (More common than you think I’m rural locations).


Most of the parks (public) I go to are upgrading some sites to 50 every winter.
No as I have said before, if power to the area is limiting factor, it is very likely that other people in the area are also limited for power. Adding solar or wind nearby, and upgrading the lines to put that power on the grid will solve many of those issues.

Grit dog

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Posted: 02/17/22 05:15pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

JRscooby wrote:



Just trumping up numbers here, but if the cost of the wire is 20% of the upgrade (likely way high) then doubling that cost would raise the total cost 20%. If the CG thinks the bigger RVs, needing 50 AMP would pay for the upgrade in 5 years, then as long as the EVs pay the extra interest, pay-off is 6. Add the possibility of extra tax bennies, and the chance of using some sites mid-week for short times, just charging EVs


Most of the parks (public) I go to are upgrading some sites to 50 every winter.
No as I have said before, if power to the area is limiting factor, it is very likely that other people in the area are also limited for power. Adding solar or wind nearby, and upgrading the lines to put that power on the grid will solve many of those issues.


And I'm saying, the cost of bigger wire is a drop in the bucket compared to the total cost of major infrastructure upgrades to a campground. Had to upgrade that job above I was talking about from 10 ga to 8ga on the service legs. "Only" cost $3k in wire. And there's only enough wire on that job for about 2 custom homes.
It's ok, some people don't want to "understand" everything, they just "want it." (same analogy I used earlier)
Do you recall the recent thread on here about a new campground? 75 site or 175 site, or whatever it was, with a $10M price tag.
How much of that do you think was electrical infrastructure? I'd take a rough guess at 20% +. I mean, how much can it cost to do some grading work and run some dump trucks around? (Same mentality you were using, but I'm sure you can relate as a dump truck driver)
So $2M to wire and fire up a new campground. Rebuilding existing infrastructure is never or almost never cheaper than new construction.

Now, to be fair, some campground are in areas with little regulation for environmental and other things, and are far more economical to "improve." But MANY camping areas are in very highly regulated and environmentally sensitive or regulated areas (think Nat Parks).

Again, it's possible, it will happen, things will change, but in the meantime, there's more to it than the Thursday afternoon quarterbacks here are giving it credit for.


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valhalla360

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Posted: 02/17/22 10:03pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Reisender wrote:


They are already kinda promoting them. But why would they discourage use? Wouldn’t that just turn away revenue?


If a stray person finds them, sure but actively promoting costs money and since you indicated they aren't high speed, they aren't likely to pick up people driving by...plus most campgrounds are in more isolated areas.

But large scale use, particularly mid summer means they may be looking at power problems unless they can get the govt to pay for massive overbuilding of the system.


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Posted: 02/17/22 10:04pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Thermoguy wrote:

WHY DOES EVERYONE THINK AN EV HAS TO BE PLUGGED IN EVERY TIME IT STOPS?


Every time...no but even if we tow 150miles (fairly low end), we are typically filling up before the next travel day.

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Posted: 02/17/22 10:25pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

valhalla360 wrote:

Reisender wrote:


They are already kinda promoting them. But why would they discourage use? Wouldn’t that just turn away revenue?


If a stray person finds them, sure but actively promoting costs money and since you indicated they aren't high speed, they aren't likely to pick up people driving by...plus most campgrounds are in more isolated areas.

But large scale use, particularly mid summer means they may be looking at power problems unless they can get the govt to pay for massive overbuilding of the system.


Ahh I see what you are saying. I would think most EVers would choose other places to charge than an RV park unless they are staying there though.

Re summer use. Yah for sure. Because of course the RV air conditioners would also be on. I guess the other side of that is If someone checks in for 4 days they would probably only be charging the first day though.

But straight up, most of this load stuff is way above my pay grade. Wife and I were both technicians during our Air Force careers but grid loads and calculations of that nature are a completely different world. I’m sure it will get sorted out by people smarter than me. [emoticon].

Cheers.

JRscooby

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Posted: 02/18/22 04:36am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

valhalla360 wrote:

Reisender wrote:


They are already kinda promoting them. But why would they discourage use? Wouldn’t that just turn away revenue?


If a stray person finds them, sure but actively promoting costs money and since you indicated they aren't high speed, they aren't likely to pick up people driving by...plus most campgrounds are in more isolated areas.

But large scale use, particularly mid summer means they may be looking at power problems unless they can get the govt to pay for massive overbuilding of the system.


I'm not normally a KOA camper, but have used a few times. Most of them appear to be located near routes likely to be used on the way to tourist destinations. Do people spend days in them? Or do they stop, late-afternoon, early evening use the pool/playground fix supper, spend the night, and leave after breakfast? Mid-day place mostly MT. I could see a motel user, traveling with kids, drive for few hours, pull into KOA instead of shopping center to let kids un-whine in playground, while pick up some charge, then head on to the next motel

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Posted: 02/18/22 01:11pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Reisender wrote:


Ahh I see what you are saying. I would think most EVers would choose other places to charge than an RV park unless they are staying there though.

Re summer use. Yah for sure. Because of course the RV air conditioners would also be on. I guess the other side of that is If someone checks in for 4 days they would probably only be charging the first day though.



Yes, there's the logistical things that utopians generally dismiss as someone else's problem, or just dismiss altogether for the convenience of making their point, whether it's a well thought out opinion or not.

Of course, the "peak load" of the theoretical line of 2 AC campers and EVs charging, all running at the same time while every wife is drying her hair and every husband is microwaving popcorn is not going to happen all the time or maybe never in my exaggerated example.

BUT, the logistics of it is, the system "needs" to be designed for a high % of those simultaneous peak loads.
Just add it to the tab, right? Bigger wire aint very expensive according to someone on this thread. Simple solution...

The other logistics is, it's 100deg out and all the 2AC folks are hogging the power, so now I need to stop and charge up before I get back from my day trip, caue both my ACs also have to cool down my camper from being heat soked all day becasue I conserved power and shut them off this morning when I left...but I was planning on charging at camp because there aint no level 3 chargers for my Rivian, ERam, cyberfruck, whatever, in Heron MT. Guess I'll plug in behind the Holiday station here and mooch a 120V outlet for the next 6 hours to make enough juice to get the 40 miles back to the NF campground so I don't have to call my buddy who doesn't have cell service or didn't come on this trip, to bring me a gallon of gas and the generator that wilL need to use the gas!

EVs are city slicker vehicles designed to be used primarily in urban or well traveled areas. I doubt there will be sufficient charging capability where I chose to vacation or camp, or even live, given the choice, for a loooong time.

Difference is, I can go anywhere and fill up 4x in the same day if needed and it takes a total of about 10min per fillup and and I'm off to the races again.
Then there's the rest of the petroleum fired toys and conveniences that we all know and love. Until I get that EWake Boat and the trees in the mountains start sprouting level 2 chargers, I and everyone else who isn't a tree hugger is still tied to gasoline and diesel in some fashion anyway.

Thermoguy

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Posted: 02/19/22 10:12am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

dodge guy wrote:

Thermoguy wrote:

WHY DOES EVERYONE THINK AN EV HAS TO BE PLUGGED IN EVERY TIME IT STOPS?

I don't fill my tank every time I stop. I have a gauge and it tells me about how far I can go. An EV has a much more accurate gauge. If you use 50% of your battery to get to the site, maybe plugging in for a few hours or overnight to a standard outlet is all you need to get home. Maybe you don't need to plug in at all, maybe there is a quick charge 10-20 miles away, similar to a gas station. The benefit to a campground is many already have electrical service to camp sites. My trailer can go a couple days without plugging in. So, if I had an EV, maybe I plug it in overnight and live life on the boondocking edge with only my batteries...

I feel like everyone here forgets having trucks built in the 70's. Small gas tanks, poor gas mileage. Both of the 70 era trucks I had couldn't drive by a gas station without getting gas. Forget pulling a trailer, this was just the truck by itself. Add a trailer, 8-10 miles to the gallon or less and a small tank. My dually had 2 tanks, but that was special. The truck before that, same engine, but only 1 tank. Driving across state is what put all those small gas stations in little towns in business and thriving. The EV curve is the same, initially they need more ways to charge, but eventually they will have ranges similar or further than an ICE, but as I said 5 pages ago you can charge an EV at home, you can't fill up your ICE at home...


So your OK running the battery down to 10% and then waiting 2 hours for a full charge only to drive another 150 miles to do it all over again? I hope you are patient! We are talking towing here.


You can't compare the Rivian with their small battery to every EV tow vehicle coming to the market. We are not far off from 1 ton EV's with ranges beyond 500 miles towing. There are 2 companies on the market that are preparing dually based 1 ton EV trucks with capacities beyond the current Diesel models. So, for those of you in the go big or go home camp, it is coming - and range anxiety won't exist.

Just to be upfront, I do not own an EV and I am not in the market. If I was in the market for a new truck it would be a 1 ton dually diesel. I think EV's will be here sooner than most think and the missing link is the infrastructure. That is being fixed with government grants and such. The manufacturers including the big 3 are all working on very capable EV trucks with the F150, Silverado and Ram. These trucks will be out there on the street and in your campground in the next couple years. They won't be pulling monster trailers, but they will be there and sometimes might need a recharge, sometimes they wont.

I do work in the transportation industry and I can tell you electric buses, delivery vehicles, heavy haul trucks, taxis and more are coming to the EV stage (many are already here). The needs of these people are beyond what any of us need for our RV pleasure. They will pave the way and these companies will remove the range anxiety so that all of these anti EV comments wont mean anything. If you could take your current truck and have it reliably drive 1 million miles without having to change oil, rebuild engines, etc, would it be attractive? I know, what about replacing the batteries, that's currently a heavy cost, but so is replacing your engine. I think they are on the same stage with regards to miles traveled, I think batteries last longer than the average engine. But, battery technology is improving at a faster rate than engines, just look at your cell phone and how a new phone can go days without a charge vs an old one charging once a day or more.

Thermoguy

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Posted: 02/19/22 03:53pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

OK - for all you EV haters try this:

GMC Sierra 2500 - all electric (prototype)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBWm_LZ0GYs


The key to this report - they know what it takes to have uninterrupted power under heavy load for long hauls.... This is about EV motors, but battery technology is also keeping up with this need.

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