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Open Roads Forum  >  Around the Campfire

 > Interesting EV’s versus ICE article…

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3 tons

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Posted: 04/26/22 08:50pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Ok, here’s my opinion…

I believe that the consternation that often tends to arise over EV’s is not because EV’s are (say, for many…) a viable if not even a better alternative, but rather due to a ‘parallel issue’ whereby a cogent case has yet to be satisfactorily demonstrated or properly expressed over the issue of a ‘net pollution’ reduction…Thus, I believe that many ICE folks are left to simply wonder about this, though it’s likely (and understandably, per forum rules) beyond the scope of this thread…

Either way, the ‘winds of progress’ are upon us, so it seems worth a modicum of awareness, and surely over a time more and more folks will find an EV well worth transitioning to, particularly as battery technology evolves, and especially for those who can charge using home solar - again this seems well worth one’s consideration…

3 tons

wanderingaimlessly

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Posted: 04/27/22 06:04pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Personal belief/opinion. EV's are similar to many other topics in the US. One faction wants to push their beliefs on others.
For us, it seems one particular side always demands the other side capitulate to their demands. Forcing EV's is just one more part of that philosophy.
As I said earlier, My opinion is that they have a place, urban grocery getter, commuter vehicle and the inclusion of hybrids give them more flexibility. But that one side in the US, and maybe the world, that demands ALL give in to them will not stop until they have forced their ideals on others.

BCSnob

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Posted: 04/27/22 06:42pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

My opinion is that EVs vs ICEs is not a binary choice. Where it makes sense (urban/suburban regions where there is the highest density of vehicles used over daily ranges within the current EV range) to replace ICEs with EVs to better reduce/manage emissions we should move in that direction. Where it doesn’t make sense (daily ranges beyond those of EVs such as rural areas and cross country trips) continue to use ICEs.

Any reduction in emissions is better than doing nothing. Replacing ICEs where there is the greatest concentration of emissions (rural/suburban regions) should be our goal. Choosing to make no changes is choosing to increase emissions annually since the population (and by extension number of registered vehicles) increases annually.

* This post was edited 04/27/22 07:12pm by BCSnob *

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Posted: 04/27/22 07:11pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

wanderingaimlessly wrote:

Personal belief/opinion. EV's are similar to many other topics in the US. One faction wants to push their beliefs on others.
For us, it seems one particular side always demands the other side capitulate to their demands. Forcing EV's is just one more part of that philosophy.
As I said earlier, My opinion is that they have a place, urban grocery getter, commuter vehicle and the inclusion of hybrids give them more flexibility. But that one side in the US, and maybe the world, that demands ALL give in to them will not stop until they have forced their ideals on others.


I don’t know. There are lots of different EV’s on the market. Many with rated ranges of 500 kilometres or greater. Relegating them to grocery getter or commuting doesn’t seem realistic. Road tripping is just as easy for us with our EV SUV as it was with our grand Cherokee SUV. Except now we have twice the horsepower and torque and it’s a fraction of the cost per kilometre driven. (On edit I think the new grand cherokees are a little better for horsepower than ours was).

And right now with camping season upon us we head out pretty much every week pulling our little RV, enjoying provincial parks and campgrounds. Putting a box around them seems uninformed to me. It’s not a diesel truck but does what it does pretty good. Works for us.

Jmho.

* This post was edited 04/27/22 07:28pm by Reisender *

way2roll

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Posted: 04/28/22 06:44am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

BCSnob wrote:



Any reduction in emissions is better than doing nothing. Replacing ICEs where there is the greatest concentration of emissions (rural/suburban regions) should be our goal. Choosing to make no changes is choosing to increase emissions annually since the population (and by extension number of registered vehicles) increases annually.


Circling back on the questions I had earlier; Do EV's really produce less emissions? (consider cradle to grave life cycle as well as power dependency). And beyond emissions - are we trading one set of ecological, global economical and sociological problems for another set? Is there really a net gain? The true objective analysis seems elusive.


2020 F350 STX 6.7L Turbo Diesel
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Posted: 04/28/22 04:54pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Yah no worries wandering. For sure we don’t all have the same needs. Lots of people need long range towing. And of course many don’t. Around here on Friday night at 5 o’clock the roads are packed with RV’s headed for their favourite local spot. They are set up and into their second beer by 7. Back on Sunday afternoon and next Friday rinse and repeat. [emoticon]. We tend to go out mondays when things are quiet and leave before everyone gets there on Friday. [emoticon].

Anyway. Mine is just one opinion and reflects how many RV in our region. Other regions people have to travel further so they need tow vehicles with longer range capabilities. There is no right way to do it.

Cheers and happy camping.

* This post was edited 04/28/22 05:28pm by an administrator/moderator *

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Posted: 04/28/22 05:36pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

wanderingaimlessly wrote:

Your in a beautiful region, If I were there, I would be hitting more remote areas. The Dempster, Dalton and others. AN EV is a hindrance for that. The infrastructure is not, and will not be there in the near future. The EV is tethered to more urban areas, even if there are nearby woods.
Hopefully you see this before another mod does.


Absolutely. Anything north of the 16 between Rupert and Edmonton is a no go zone for EV's right now. My guess is another 3 years before significant infrastructure make it up there.

As well, I am familiar with that territory. I wouldn't want to do it with an SUV like ours. A truck with good clearance is a much better choice. Diesel or gas as most service stations up that way have both.

We are headed out in about 3 weeks for Quebec city and all points in between. Combination of visiting family and touring. We have 8 to 10 weeks although the first two weeks will be mostly BC, Alberta and a bit of saskatchewan. Then we'll press on to the lakes region of Ontario. There are a bunch of places along the route that we have never been able to visit with our old pusher and toad. Should be a little easier with the little trailer and SUV.

Just a few shots of where we have been the last few trips. We are truly blessed here. There are dozens of places within a couple hundred kilometres of driveway. It will take years to visit them all...but its a mission. [emoticon] The down side of going out this time of year is I'm pretty sure the temperature has dropped below zero C almost every night we have been out. Pretty nice days although fairly cool. Great for hiking though. Bears are just coming out though...and they are hungry. [emoticon]

Enjoy and safe travels.

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BCSnob

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Posted: 04/28/22 05:37pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

way2roll wrote:

Circling back on the questions I had earlier; Do EV's really produce less emissions?.

See DOE: Emissions from Hybrid and Plug-In Electric Vehicles which compares emissions based upon power generation mixes by state.

Which is an easier emission reduction problem to solve, controlling/reducing the emissions from millions of moving ICEs or 1,000s of stationary fossil fuel power generation plants?

I’ll look for some cradle to grave assessments of ICEs vs EVs I have read recently. My recollection is the break even point (mileage where EVs and ICEs have similar total emissions) is about 100,000miles (depending upon power mix used for charging).

This is a very recent assessment, published in 2022, of life cycle emissions which I had not seen before.

Total CO2-equivalent life-cycle emission........om commercially available passenger cars

* This post was last edited 04/28/22 08:32pm by BCSnob *   View edit history

philh

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Posted: 04/28/22 07:19pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Looking for solid evidence for one side of EV or the other side being ICE is nearly impossible.

Given the amount of earth that has to be moved to produce batteries and other EV components is substantial.

I will add this, oil is getting more and more difficult to find and extract. But, the amount of rare earth materials is limited. We won't see this in my lifetime, but neither of these are long term, going into decades or possibly century or two.

Even if we take a common material, copper, it used to be you'd find boulders of it available. Now it's much more difficult to find. Electric motors use a lot of copper. Ford new EV vehicles are using square wires in the motor stators. This avoids the need to "wrap" the copper, with weight and material savings.

The cost of EV is expensive, and not expected to get cheaper. I have a hard time justifying the additional cost for BEV. I have leased a plug in hybrid in the past, and it was a good car. We're down to two vehicles, F350D and Challenger SRT. Don't expect to buy anything else anytime soon.

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Posted: 04/28/22 07:56pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Since this should be a comparison of ICE vs EV….

What amount of earth is moved with oil sands?
Go look into the heavy metals and other trace elements that come in crude oil.

Neither “life cycle”, ICE or EV, are without environmental contamination; the question is which one has less. This means describing how bad one is for the environment has no context without also describing the impacts on the environment by the other one.

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