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Open Roads Forum  >  Tow Vehicles

 > Ford stops taking orders on the lightening

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valhalla360

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Posted: 04/29/22 08:09am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Huntindog wrote:

I don' know about that....We have been told repeatadly that EVs have fewer parts, and thus assembly is easier/cheaper, and there is less to go wrong.... So they are much more reliable... It almost sounds like the old commercial for Maytag, and their repairmen having nothing to do.....


I seriously doubt, they are suddenly going to staff up with electronics engineers who diagnose electronics issues and then break out the soldering gun and rewire the computer boards. The car will spit out a code and they will swap out chips/boards based on what the codes suggest.


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Posted: 04/29/22 08:17am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

valhalla360 wrote:

Reisender wrote:

Our grand Cherokee was a good vehicle for us. It had a higher tow rating than our EV SUV. But it was no where near as capable. In comparison it was a dog. Having said that I’m sure the new ones are better.

All jmho.


We used to have a 1996 Cherokee (small version not the bigger "Grand") with the straight 6...Pulled a small boat with it that I'm guessing was similar in weight to your teardrop. Absolutely not a dog. Never felt it struggled at all.

The newer SUVs have a lot more power and smoother engines and transmissions, so I would expect them to be even better.

Again, if you want to take it out on the race track towing, I wouldn't be surprised if the EV wins but modern ICE drivetrains are pretty incredible and a teardrop isn't much of a load.

I can't see high performance being a real separator in real life use.

It's also like when they talk about crazy 0-60 times. Who actually actually puts their foot to the floor and holds it there till they hit 60 in real life driving? Maybe if you get a sports car and take it to track days but in real life driving not so much. The days of 40hp VW bugs that took 60 seconds to hit 60mph with it floored, are long gone. Even bottom of the barrel econoboxes get brisk acceleration.

As you say...JMHO.


Yah all true. We are typically in the slow lane behind a truck taking our time. But living in the BC Mountains it’s nice having about 450 horsepower and similar torque on the pedal.

But from a comparative point of view in my opinion our present SUV is just a much more pleasant tow experience. The low centre of gravity, power to weight ratio, better braking and relatively heavy vehicle just makes for a better towing experience for us. But that’s just our experience. Others may find it different.

I think a lot of these attributes will transfer to the new electric half tons coming out over the next year. Should be interesting to see how people like them for towing smaller trailers.

Like I say, in my opinion heavy long range RV towing will remain in the realm of the diesel and gas world for a few more years. But change is coming, and I have experienced it first hand. It’s pretty cool.

JRscooby

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Posted: 04/29/22 08:18am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Lantley wrote:

JRscooby wrote:
"But my point of mentioning my old training is to point out that training is not a big issue. Likely anybody that retires out of shop will be replaced by a younger person that has been trained on the EV."

Your making my point. Do we have to wait for the current mehanics to retire?
Can we train the current mechnics or do we need to find a new generation of EV capable mechanics? How long will the mechanic turnover take?
How will the lack of trained mechanics impact the roll out of EV's by legacy ICE car builders? In short does Ford have enough trained staff in place to handle the F-150 lightning roll out?
Hopefully they have more EV mechanics than diesel mechanics.
None of my local dealerships have enough knowledgeable diesel mechanics,hopefully they will do better with EV.


Let me see, what percentage of the work done in dealer shops involves the engine/drive train? And how much of that small percentage is just normal maintenance of the ICE system?
Now 50 years ago much of the dealer's repair work was FREDs. And I would bet most dealer work now would be in that line, and take no new training.
How long will it take most of the techs to replace the ones that do not know EVs. Bet it be less time than it takes to replace most ICE with EVs.
About the diesel/EV problem; First, look under the hood of a heavy duty truck, or industrial application. The same knowledge will let you work on the other engines, that you can see.
Also, I'm sure if you did a search you could find a exploded drawing of say a twin cylinder diesel. Another window, find a exploded drawing of a electric motor. Which would take longer to learn?

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Posted: 04/29/22 08:24am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

time2roll wrote:

Good chance there will need to be far fewer mechanics for EVs.
I speculate half the current service locations could be out of business.


I could see a small reduction but looking back at the work I've had done over the last couple decades...vast majority was tires/suspensions/brakes and other minor things that had nothing to do with ICE vs EV.

There may or may not be some advantage to brakes on an EV. The last two times I've had brake issues, it was from lack of use (truck got stored for 6 months over the winter while working overseas). If you are easy on the brakes and the regenerative does all the work, will the hydraulic brakes develop similar issues on EVs?

Other than an oil change or two per year (3000miles is long gone), the actual drivetrain is incredibly reliable and doesn't take much to keep it going.

We can speculate a bit but I think it's too early to really state how much maintenance costs will be relative to ICE. Currently, there are very few 15-20yr old EVs kicking around and the vast majority have been purchased by higher income individuals who are less likely to hesitate paying for preventative maintenance.

As a commuter vehicle or for a local contractor not needing heavy towing, I see it as quite viable. With a 230mile base range and an extra $10k to get 330mile range, I can't see it being popular for towing when you will lose 1/3 to 1/2 that range.

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Posted: 04/29/22 08:43am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

valhalla360 wrote:

time2roll wrote:

Good chance there will need to be far fewer mechanics for EVs.
I speculate half the current service locations could be out of business.


I could see a small reduction but looking back at the work I've had done over the last couple decades...vast majority was tires/suspensions/brakes and other minor things that had nothing to do with ICE vs EV.

There may or may not be some advantage to brakes on an EV. The last two times I've had brake issues, it was from lack of use (truck got stored for 6 months over the winter while working overseas). If you are easy on the brakes and the regenerative does all the work, will the hydraulic brakes develop similar issues on EVs?

Other than an oil change or two per year (3000miles is long gone), the actual drivetrain is incredibly reliable and doesn't take much to keep it going.

We can speculate a bit but I think it's too early to really state how much maintenance costs will be relative to ICE. Currently, there are very few 15-20yr old EVs kicking around and the vast majority have been purchased by higher income individuals who are less likely to hesitate paying for preventative maintenance.

As a commuter vehicle or for a local contractor not needing heavy towing, I see it as quite viable. With a 230mile base range and an extra $10k to get 330mile range, I can't see it being popular for towing when you will lose 1/3 to 1/2 that range.


True on the brakes causing problems because of non use. This is showing up on almost every brand of EV. Now Informed people are getting in the habit of a once a week hard brake application to try and avoid the issue. We make a point of it every time we come into town on a certain route with a big hill and a stoplight at the bottom. So far so good for us but I know Tesla and Kona owners that have had brake issues from non use.

Also, 12 volt batteries still wear out. They tend to be smaller as they need no cranking ability but a bunch of manufacturers have had early failure on their 12 volt batteries. We went thru a 12 volt battery on our leaf at 4 years. Still pricey at 110 bucks although I never checked around much. I just got it from Nissan.

* This post was edited 04/29/22 10:41am by Reisender *

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Posted: 04/29/22 10:16am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

valhalla360 wrote:

I can't see high performance being a real separator in real life use. It's also like when they talk about crazy 0-60 times..
People buy cars for all kinds of reasons, and if their ICE car could beat an EV at 0-60, I'm sure they'd be complaining about it.

I wonder if an electric dragster could beat a top fueler? That would really pi** some people off. At least they wouldn't have to rebuild the engine after every run or two.

Of course without all the noise and fire, what fun would that be?

* This post was edited 04/29/22 10:24am by 2oldman *

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Posted: 04/29/22 10:31am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

2oldman wrote:

valhalla360 wrote:

I can't see high performance being a real separator in real life use. It's also like when they talk about crazy 0-60 times..
People buy cars for all kinds of reasons, and if their ICE car could beat an EV at 0-60, I'm sure they'd be complaining about it.

I wonder if an electric dragster could beat a top fueler? That would really pi** some people off. At least they wouldn't have to rebuild the engine after every run or two.

Of course without all the noise and fire, what fun would that be?


ev dragster breaks 201mph

I don't think the initial intent of EV cars was 0-60 times, it just so happens though that EV motors deliver torque quicker and are more efficient at delivering power though the entire band, so it's a bonus. Also there is not near the wear and tear like ICE's.


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Posted: 04/29/22 11:47am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Reisender wrote:

Also, 12 volt batteries still wear out. They tend to be smaller as they need no cranking ability but a bunch of manufacturers have had early failure on their 12 volt batteries. We went thru a 12 volt battery on our leaf at 4 years. Still pricey at 110 bucks although I never checked around much. I just got it from Nissan.
Both my 12v batteries were recently replaced under warranty at just over three years.
I do find it odd these old flooded start batteries are still being used in an EV.

Never read much on brake issues. Maybe if your driving style focuses on avoiding the friction brakes. Otherwise just drive.

Don't need an EV tech to do tires, brakes, 12v battery swap, suspension, cabin filter, wipers.
Primary training will be to avoid the high voltage.


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Posted: 04/29/22 12:00pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

time2roll wrote:

Reisender wrote:

Also, 12 volt batteries still wear out. They tend to be smaller as they need no cranking ability but a bunch of manufacturers have had early failure on their 12 volt batteries. We went thru a 12 volt battery on our leaf at 4 years. Still pricey at 110 bucks although I never checked around much. I just got it from Nissan.
Both my 12v batteries were recently replaced under warranty at just over three years.
I do find it odd these old flooded start batteries are still being used in an EV.

Never read much on brake issues. Maybe if your driving style focuses on avoiding the friction brakes. Otherwise just drive.u

Don't need an EV tech to do tires, brakes, 12v battery swap, suspension, cabin filter, wipers.
Primary training will be to avoid the high voltage.


Re the brakes. From what I gather the people experiencing these problems are in winter zones where a lot of road salt is used. So far so good for us. With our new Y we probably use the brakes more anyway when pulling the trailer. 5 or 6 percent grades are fine with regen even with the trailer, but lots of routes have sections steeper than that. That keeps them fresh.

Tesla switched to an LFP 12 volt this year. Honestly don’t know what ours has. We keep a booster pack in the car. Came in handy on the leaf a couple times before we replaced the 12 volt battery. Unfortunately out of warranty.

valhalla360

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Posted: 04/29/22 12:15pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Reisender wrote:

valhalla360 wrote:

time2roll wrote:

Good chance there will need to be far fewer mechanics for EVs.
I speculate half the current service locations could be out of business.


I could see a small reduction but looking back at the work I've had done over the last couple decades...vast majority was tires/suspensions/brakes and other minor things that had nothing to do with ICE vs EV.

There may or may not be some advantage to brakes on an EV. The last two times I've had brake issues, it was from lack of use (truck got stored for 6 months over the winter while working overseas). If you are easy on the brakes and the regenerative does all the work, will the hydraulic brakes develop similar issues on EVs?

Other than an oil change or two per year (3000miles is long gone), the actual drivetrain is incredibly reliable and doesn't take much to keep it going.

We can speculate a bit but I think it's too early to really state how much maintenance costs will be relative to ICE. Currently, there are very few 15-20yr old EVs kicking around and the vast majority have been purchased by higher income individuals who are less likely to hesitate paying for preventative maintenance.

As a commuter vehicle or for a local contractor not needing heavy towing, I see it as quite viable. With a 230mile base range and an extra $10k to get 330mile range, I can't see it being popular for towing when you will lose 1/3 to 1/2 that range.


True on the brakes causing problems because of non use. This is showing up on almost every brand of EV. Now Informed people are getting in the habit of a once a week hard brake application to try and avoid the issue. We make a point of it every time we come into town on a certain route with a big hill and a stoplight at the bottom. So far so good for us but I know Tesla and Kona owners that have had brake issues from non use.


Very interesting. It was speculation on my part but appears to be true.

Of course, if it's a common issue that might be solvable. If the system requires you to press the brake pedal when putting it in gear (I think all modern cars do), you could just adjust the sensor, so it has to be pushed far enough to actuate the hydraulic brakes to get it in gear.

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