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BFL13

Victoria, BC

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Posted: 05/07/22 08:35am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

StirCrazy wrote:



I see what your saying. I guess if we stay in that area that skews the numbers the advantage will be on the smaller side but what if we are looking at using the genny from 65-100% how much differentce is there then. this is more where I lived with my GC batteries and solar instead of a genny. I would be at tht 60 to 70% mark in the morning and recharged by 1 to 2 pm to 100% I did drain down my new battery pack by about 45AH in the drive way an did a simulation and it was recharged by 11:38am. hardly scientific but a simular amount that needed to be recharged and a significantly faster time.

I guess I just have a hard time understanding with how cheep solar has gotten why we are still talking generators unless you have to run an AC.


That's easy--for when there is no/not enough solar. Eg we go to Rathtrevor park in the woods for four days in February, temps just above freezing. No solar in the woods. Park rule is two hours gen time morning (we don't do it at night in the dark outside)

460AH bank is about 400AH at those temps. 75 amp charger biggest can carry due to limit of size of portable gen we can carry in the RV spaces so stuck with that 75 amps limit.

75/400 is a 19% charging rate and that means Bulk ends at about 78% SOC before amps taper. After two nights next morning (day 3) we are down about 230 AH so about 43% SOC so fire up the gen for the two hours.

Get 43-78% with constant 75 amps is 140AH at 75 amps = 1 hr 56 min so get 4 minutes with tapering amps, not tapered very much. Heat loss 6%?
So AH restored is say 132 AH (which is close to what the Trimetric says so that works)

If we had LFP we still use the same AH a day. Same two hours limit with same 75 amp charger limit

= 150AH vs 132AH so the LFP gets you 18AH more in the two hours.

In our case 18AH more restored to get us to Day 4 would not make any difference, so no reason to swap to LFP. Absolutely need the gen to go at all whether LFP or FLA or whatever kind of battery.

Happens that four 6s are perfect for that job in our RV. YMMV Haven't worked out how big in AH the LFP bank would have to be to do two nights and 230AH before needing to recharge morning of Day 3 and cost of that compared with cost of four 6s.

In fact if there were sunshine you might still be doing some gen time high amps in the morning and solar low amps but with more time the rest of the day to get to full recharge or as high in SOC as possible that day.


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StirCrazy

Kamloops, BC, Canada

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Posted: 05/08/22 06:46am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

BFL13 wrote:

StirCrazy wrote:



I see what your saying. I guess if we stay in that area that skews the numbers the advantage will be on the smaller side but what if we are looking at using the genny from 65-100% how much differentce is there then. this is more where I lived with my GC batteries and solar instead of a genny. I would be at tht 60 to 70% mark in the morning and recharged by 1 to 2 pm to 100% I did drain down my new battery pack by about 45AH in the drive way an did a simulation and it was recharged by 11:38am. hardly scientific but a simular amount that needed to be recharged and a significantly faster time.

I guess I just have a hard time understanding with how cheep solar has gotten why we are still talking generators unless you have to run an AC.


That's easy--for when there is no/not enough solar. Eg we go to Rathtrevor park in the woods for four days in February, temps just above freezing. No solar in the woods. Park rule is two hours gen time morning (we don't do it at night in the dark outside)

460AH bank is about 400AH at those temps. 75 amp charger biggest can carry due to limit of size of portable gen we can carry in the RV spaces so stuck with that 75 amps limit.

75/400 is a 19% charging rate and that means Bulk ends at about 78% SOC before amps taper. After two nights next morning (day 3) we are down about 230 AH so about 43% SOC so fire up the gen for the two hours.

Get 43-78% with constant 75 amps is 140AH at 75 amps = 1 hr 56 min so get 4 minutes with tapering amps, not tapered very much. Heat loss 6%?
So AH restored is say 132 AH (which is close to what the Trimetric says so that works)

If we had LFP we still use the same AH a day. Same two hours limit with same 75 amp charger limit

= 150AH vs 132AH so the LFP gets you 18AH more in the two hours.

In our case 18AH more restored to get us to Day 4 would not make any difference, so no reason to swap to LFP. Absolutely need the gen to go at all whether LFP or FLA or whatever kind of battery.

Happens that four 6s are perfect for that job in our RV. YMMV Haven't worked out how big in AH the LFP bank would have to be to do two nights and 230AH before needing to recharge morning of Day 3 and cost of that compared with cost of four 6s.

In fact if there were sunshine you might still be doing some gen time high amps in the morning and solar low amps but with more time the rest of the day to get to full recharge or as high in SOC as possible that day.


I was always able to find a site with at least 4 hours of sun on the island. don't forget I lived there for 20 years. BC is bad for darker campsites, especialy on the island but you can work it. i bought a genny yeas ago and had solar on my camper thinking I would use the genny for an extra top up but in the 20 years of camping on the island I never had to use it. but I was also changing everything on the trailer I could to maximize battery power. so I think the difference here is in how we use our RV's. I had four 6's for a total of 470AH about 1/2 actualy usable if you want a good life span. my total draw for 24 hours in the winter on the island was under 40AH yes in the winter the solar didnt work verry good but before I installed it I could go about 5 days and just hit that 5% mark, after I could pritty much double that amount of time. in the summer before the pannels I could do about 2 weeks after the install, I never had a issue with power. with my new 5th wheel and the same battery bank just new batteries and more solar it is simular. we do use the inverter now and use the microwave once and a while and the coffee maker. In the summer now power worries , late fall and early spring same thing. if I get stuck in a site that is totaly shaded then I have about 4 days of power then I have to look at moving to some sun or plugging in, no biggy. the camper my length of stay os dramaticly incresed with the LFP. not only did I get my outsize storage back but I decreased the weight by 100 lbs. before on two 6V I could go three days with out sun in the lait fall in alberta and be tickling 50% of my capacity so 104 AH. now if I had that perfect storm again I could wait it out for 10 days if I had to. with the solar in the camper I never have to worry about power in the summer, when the sun is out it used to be full by about 1pm now before lunch I am back at 100%.

I guess it all boils down to how much power you use and what you want to do to maximize that lenght of stay factor. some people like gennys , I personaly cant stand them. nothing worse than drinking a coffee by the lake in the morning as the sun rises listing to the birds , watching the fish jump .... then the drone of a genny starts up...


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Thermoguy

Graham, WA

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Posted: 05/14/22 02:51pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

I apologize for hijacking this thread. I am interested in a possible converter upgrade as well.

First, I have a WFCO WF-8935 - 30AMP, not 55AMP. Trying to decide if I have a battery charging problem or battery problem. I have 2 2year old 6V Duracell batteries. When I put them on an external charger, they charge right up, but aren't holding the charge for long. Using the installed WFCO charger, they never seem to get to full charge status. This is a new problem as I just installed the batteries after winter storage a couple weeks ago. We are getting ready for memorial day weekend and turns out I booked the wrong site with no power or water, not sure how I missed that. But, we have a generator and can top off the batteries, just don't want to do that every day or even try to get away without using the gen if I can.

Question 1. How do I test to see if the converter is working correctly and charging the batteries? I feel like I'm not putting my leads in the right place, only ever getting a little over 12v DC.

Question 2 if I replace the converter, what is a good substitute? Will the PD 4635WV slide right in? Is there a case to go larger? 45 or 55 AMP? If so, what else do you need to change?

Any other suggestions? Not a newby to RV's but have never had to mess with the electrical system other than switching to 6v and finding a disconnected ground which caused my electrical system to not work...

Thanks in advance for any advice. Just an FYI, not switching to LiIon, Not adding solar... etc. What I have works when it's working. We only boondock 3-4 times a year and the gen works fine to recharge the batteries when it works. We try to camp away from other people when we can.

wa8yxm

Davison Michigan (East of Flint)

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Posted: 05/14/22 03:52pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Two lead placement locations
1:The battery. Fist unpluggee then plugged in note any voltage difference
Then hours later (Like 4) and again not the voltage then post and we may be able to advise better as to "is it working)
WFCO has a known (And as I'm told though I've never done it easily fixed) issue where it does not go into BULK so it takes a long time to charge.

This replaces the electronics on the back of the breaker/fuse panel so it's a bit cheaper than the 9200 series but otherwise works the same.

Question 2: Progressive Dynamics 4600 series I think the smallest is 4645 (With a 30 amp converter you will want the smallest 4600)


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LittleBill

Scranton, PA USA

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Posted: 05/14/22 03:58pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Thermoguy wrote:

I apologize for hijacking this thread. I am interested in a possible converter upgrade as well.

First, I have a WFCO WF-8935 - 30AMP, not 55AMP. Trying to decide if I have a battery charging problem or battery problem. I have 2 2year old 6V Duracell batteries. When I put them on an external charger, they charge right up, but aren't holding the charge for long. Using the installed WFCO charger, they never seem to get to full charge status. This is a new problem as I just installed the batteries after winter storage a couple weeks ago. We are getting ready for memorial day weekend and turns out I booked the wrong site with no power or water, not sure how I missed that. But, we have a generator and can top off the batteries, just don't want to do that every day or even try to get away without using the gen if I can.

Question 1. How do I test to see if the converter is working correctly and charging the batteries? I feel like I'm not putting my leads in the right place, only ever getting a little over 12v DC.

Question 2 if I replace the converter, what is a good substitute? Will the PD 4635WV slide right in? Is there a case to go larger? 45 or 55 AMP? If so, what else do you need to change?

Any other suggestions? Not a newby to RV's but have never had to mess with the electrical system other than switching to 6v and finding a disconnected ground which caused my electrical system to not work...

Thanks in advance for any advice. Just an FYI, not switching to LiIon, Not adding solar... etc. What I have works when it's working. We only boondock 3-4 times a year and the gen works fine to recharge the batteries when it works. We try to camp away from other people when we can.


Make a new thread, hijacking helps no one including you.





Thermoguy

Graham, WA

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Posted: 05/14/22 04:51pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

wa8yxm wrote:

Two lead placement locations
1:The battery. Fist unpluggee then plugged in note any voltage difference
Then hours later (Like 4) and again not the voltage then post and we may be able to advise better as to "is it working)
WFCO has a known (And as I'm told though I've never done it easily fixed) issue where it does not go into BULK so it takes a long time to charge.

This replaces the electronics on the back of the breaker/fuse panel so it's a bit cheaper than the 9200 series but otherwise works the same.

Question 2: Progressive Dynamics 4600 series I think the smallest is 4645 (With a 30 amp converter you will want the smallest 4600)


Thanks for the input.

I did measure the red and white leads coming from the converter with no battery hooked up and it measured 14.65 (aprox). I measured the white ground and red lead in the battery compartment and it read the same. I then hooked up the batteries and measured, 12.something, don't recall the exact number. That tells me that when not hooked up the converter is trying to charge at max level, then when hooked up it is going into float mode? maybe?...

I will unplug the trailer, measure after letting it sit for a bit, then measure again in the morning - to see what draw I get overnight. I have checked every light, etc, nothing is on that can be turned off.

Any other suggestions?

time2roll

Southern California

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Joined: 03/21/2005

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Posted: 05/14/22 05:02pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Thermoguy wrote:

I apologize for hijacking this thread. I am interested in a possible converter upgrade as well.

First, I have a WFCO WF-8935 - 30AMP, not 55AMP. Trying to decide if I have a battery charging problem or battery problem. I have 2 2year old 6V Duracell batteries. When I put them on an external charger, they charge right up, but aren't holding the charge for long. Using the installed WFCO charger, they never seem to get to full charge status. This is a new problem as I just installed the batteries after winter storage a couple weeks ago. We are getting ready for memorial day weekend and turns out I booked the wrong site with no power or water, not sure how I missed that. But, we have a generator and can top off the batteries, just don't want to do that every day or even try to get away without using the gen if I can.

Question 1. How do I test to see if the converter is working correctly and charging the batteries? I feel like I'm not putting my leads in the right place, only ever getting a little over 12v DC.

Question 2 if I replace the converter, what is a good substitute? Will the PD 4635WV slide right in? Is there a case to go larger? 45 or 55 AMP? If so, what else do you need to change?

Any other suggestions? Not a newby to RV's but have never had to mess with the electrical system other than switching to 6v and finding a disconnected ground which caused my electrical system to not work...

Thanks in advance for any advice. Just an FYI, not switching to LiIon, Not adding solar... etc. What I have works when it's working. We only boondock 3-4 times a year and the gen works fine to recharge the batteries when it works. We try to camp away from other people when we can.
8935 is a 35 amp converter. Probably a 30 amp RV that distributes 30 amps of 120vac.

Less than 13 volts on any converter is shot. May need to check fuses and such depending on where the test leads are connected. OK to remove and bench test. Probably not going back in anyway.

The most direct replacement would be the PowerMax MBA 35 amp.
https://powermaxconverters.com/product/pm3-mba/


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BFL13

Victoria, BC

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Posted: 05/14/22 05:54pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

"I did measure the red and white leads coming from the converter with no battery hooked up and it measured 14.65 (aprox). I measured the white ground and red lead in the battery compartment and it read the same. I then hooked up the batteries and measured, 12.something, don't recall the exact number. That tells me that when not hooked up the converter is trying to charge at max level, then when hooked up it is going into float mode? maybe?.."

The converter is working properly.

When you connect to low batteries you will now see the battery voltage up to where the converter has charged it so far. With time the battery voltage will rise through the 12s and 13s to the 14s until it is fully charged. The WFCO only stays at 14.4 for four hours, which may not be enough time to get the batteries to 14.4 so you could then start over by unplugging the 120v from the WFCO (or the whole RV) and then plug back in. That should get you another four hours of 14.4 to get more time to get the batteries fully charged.

After they get to 14.4 they may be only 80% charged so now they have to hold at 14.4 for a while when amps taper down to near zero at which time the batts are full and can be dropped to charging at 13.x. Hours and hours maybe.

Once they are fully charged the WFCO can be at 13.6 as normal for when camping and plugged in. If plugged in and not camping, then with no 12v activity for a day or two (whatever) it should drop to 13.2v for "storage" to "Float" the battery.

What you want to know is the voltage of the batteries before you connect to the WFCO. Since they are 12.x connected, that means they must have been 11.x or lower before, which is almost "dead". So whatever happened when they were out of the rig was bad for them. Should have been on a "maintenance charger".

I have four GC15 6v 230AH batts in the Class C and they are excellent.

time2roll

Southern California

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Posted: 05/14/22 06:28pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Thermoguy wrote:


Thanks for the input.

I did measure the red and white leads coming from the converter with no battery hooked up and it measured 14.65 (aprox). I measured the white ground and red lead in the battery compartment and it read the same. I then hooked up the batteries and measured, 12.something, don't recall the exact number. That tells me that when not hooked up the converter is trying to charge at max level, then when hooked up it is going into float mode? maybe?...

I will unplug the trailer, measure after letting it sit for a bit, then measure again in the morning - to see what draw I get overnight. I have checked every light, etc, nothing is on that can be turned off.

Any other suggestions?
If the voltage drops from 14 to 12 when a load is attached it would seem to indicate the converter is shot. The battery should jump up in voltage half volt to a full volt from the resting voltage when connected to the WFCO.

BFL13

Victoria, BC

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Posted: 05/14/22 06:52pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Right. I took it that it only spiked to 12.x starting from a way lower voltage

Odd the WFCO did 14.4 without a battery How did it see the under 13.2v trigger?

* This post was edited 05/14/22 10:55pm by BFL13 *

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