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Grit dog
Black Diamond, WA
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Joined: 05/06/2013
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PA12DRVR wrote:"Our computers would have recorded, sounded an alarm at each overload attempt and refused to move after a preset number of trys. Some required a keyed reset after reaching those numbers of trys...this is why said pretty soon, OEMs will control more to all ratings like they now do with ICE rev limiters"
Not quite the same but as a young buck installing piping on a natural-gas-fired-steam boiler-steam turbine power generating plant, I was in the plant when a series of out of spec issues (low steam flow on one turbine, excess on another, failed gas valve delivering full fuel to a boiler running at 40% capacity, etc) resulted in an automatic system "shutdown"....the most dramatic effects of which were the steam blowdown (wherein a 10" sch. 80 steel line wiggled like an RV hose between supports spaced circa 80' apart) and the max capacity gas flare. Lots of shiny lights and interesting sounds.
An out-of-spec truck trailer combo won't result in the same sort of fireworks, but at the end of the day, one has to decide whether they will stay in spec or not. Hopefully if they go out of spec, there is some analysis behind that decision.
Good analogy. As the crane analogy whoever brought up is accurate, albeit not comparable.
Crane standards (go figure, I have 25 years running cranes and running projects that use cranes and designing critical and engineered lifts, as well...) require 100% of chart (whether based on tipping or structural capacity) to be a maximum of 85% of the worst case static AND dynamic loading for a given weight. None of y'all that cant believe a 3/4 ton is good for more than 10k will even begin to understand dynamic loading factors....but, I digress.... I'll give the synopsis though and dynamic loading factors could increase short term loading by another 10, 20, 30%.
So now we have 15% min factor of safety (FS) for full duty cycle use at 100% of chart. PLUS up to 30% greater FS if dynamic loading factors (wind, side loading or end loading booms, unintended dynamic weight transfer in multi crane lifts, etc). THESE are the factors you don't want to start pushing the limits of...real world break s hit, crane collapse stuff.
Now OSHA/L&I require any multi crane picks, any Christmas tree rigging over 3 levels, or any single pick over 75% of the chart to be either a critical or engineered, stamped, lift.
THEN due to liability, real or perceived, companies like the ones I work for also have requirements to de-rate the REAL chart ratings, even if within the governmental controls (OSHA) to 75%-80% of the real ratings already factored for everything I mentioned above.
Same deal, my Company (the scared person who is afraid to put more than 2000lbs in the back of a 3/4 ton truck and prohibits towing with a 1/2 ton altogether...real story, I'm breaking policy by simply hooking up an arrow board to the back of my half ton) IS effectively the administrative control that self imposed increases requirements to protect themselves from the lowest common denominator person who has no clue and try to make it safe for them too.
SO if YOU as a person, fit into the lowest common denominator category, then YES, YOU should absolutely go buy more truck than you need to help save yourself and others from yourself. For the rest of us that have at least average intelligence and ability, we are safe operating off "the chart" at least in the crane analogy...
2016 Ram 2500, MotorOps.ca EFIlive tuned, 5” turbo back, 6" lift on 37s
2017 Heartland Torque T29 - Sold.
Couple of Arctic Fox TCs - Sold
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Lantley
Ellicott City, Maryland
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Joined: 08/23/2005
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Grit you hit the nail on the head. All the ratings, parameters etc. are based on the lowest common denominator.
They are not set for the most seasoned veteran. They are not caculated for those who have BTDT. They are set for the weakest, dumbest ,most frail individual.
Why? Because those individuals are out there too. Those are the people that need the guidance. If we can keep the weakest safe and in line than we can keep everyone safe.
Should we set the speed limit based on Tony Stewart's ability?
Maybe make life jacket standards based on Michael Phelps' talent?
That is why so many get excited when we discuss ignoring certain parameters.
Or that this rating is not critical.
They all matter if you are part of the lowest common denominator crowd!
More importantly this crowd really exist and we share the roads with them everyday. We should not encourage them to do anything but follow the rules,guidelines and parameters as written.
We know the dumbest of the dumb are capable of ruining the day for a lot of experienced, seasoned genuises!...LOL
19'Duramax w/hips,12'Open Range,Titan Disc Brake
BD3,RV safepower,22" Blackstone
Ox Bedsaver,RV760 w/BC20,Glow Steps, Enduraplas25,Pedego
BakFlip,RVLock,5500 Onan LP,Prog.50A surge,Hughes autoformer
Porta Bote 8.0 Nissan,Sailun S637
Correct Trax,Splendide
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Lantley
Ellicott City, Maryland
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double posted
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BenK
SF BayArea
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Joined: 04/18/2002
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And why have been saying that anyone who asks does NOT understand and best to advise them to go by the OEM's specifications/ratings.
Go out and weigh it all, axle by axle and then do the simple math
Shiner...thanks for the details. Knew most of that from a broader point and your details are very good. Made a copy for my reference
Also have been saying for years and years to use the OEM's ratings instead of the marketing nomenclature...but that again is too confusing to those who have to ask...
OEMs sell many more vehicles to those who bought the wrong one...
Grit...that boss is a pure bean counter manager and the legislators who writeup the laws governing this stuff usually are clueless. They should stick to counting beans and stay away from science & technology based topics
PA12DRVR...your story reminds of a buddy who was in the Navy during the 60's-70's and told of what they told him if they ever 'heard' steam escaping. Invisible and that stream was hot enough & escaping fast enough to cut a body in half...told to take a broom and wave it slooowly around and found when the broom was cut in half...don't know how true that one was
All things engineered/designed/etc are not for the good days, but for the Mr Murphy moment and for the Idiot Gorilla who will misuse whatever they have...taught to me early in my designing career. Seems today's designers are never taught that
-Ben Picture of my rig
1996 GMC SLT Suburban 3/4 ton K3500/7.4L/4:1/+150Kmiles orig owner...
1980 Chevy Silverado C10/long bed/"BUILT" 5.7L/3:73/1 ton helper springs/+329Kmiles, bought it from dad...
1998 Mazda B2500 (1/2 ton) pickup, 2nd owner...
Praise Dyno Brake equiped and all have "nose bleed" braking!
Previous trucks/offroaders: 40's Jeep restored in mid 60's / 69 DuneBuggy (approx +1K lb: VW pan/200hpCorvair: eng, cam, dual carb'w velocity stacks'n 18" runners, 4spd transaxle) made myself from ground up / 1970 Toyota FJ40 / 1973 K5 Blazer (2dr Tahoe, 1 ton axles front/rear, +255K miles when sold it)...
Sold the boat (looking for another): Trophy with twin 150's...
51 cylinders in household, what's yours?...
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Grit dog
Black Diamond, WA
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Joined: 05/06/2013
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Lantley wrote:Grit you hit the nail on the head. All the ratings, parameters etc. are based on the lowest common denominator.
And to be fair, I generally try to qualify my recommendations as such.
However that theory or statement is in general (like no hair dryers in the bath tub warning lables), is further complicated by the 10kgvw 3/4 ton thing. Which is the crux of most of these discussions. Where it is 99% NOT an actual design or mechanical difference but rather simply an administrative "issue."
Not like recreational users are required to have training or a different license if moving up to a 1 ton. That would also theoretically maybe save the LCDs.
And then there's the issue of what is a god given "right" vs what may require some shred of common sense or experience vs what legally requires one to posses some greater legal "qualification" like a CDL.
Do I think a dumbarse pulling a 10k trailer who can't walk and chew gum at the same time and has to wear velcro shoes is any more of a hazard in a 2500 than a 3500? Nope
Yet that same guy could go buy a bigger 5ver than yours and a dually and pass the sniff test from the other people who have little understanding, all day long. But I give the odds to DA#1 with a smaller trailer making it to his destination than DA#2 who is pulling a miniature semi trailer with a pickemup truck!
BTW I agree with you. Just good discussion....and food for thought for the naysayers.
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Grit dog
Black Diamond, WA
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BenK wrote:
All things engineered/designed/etc are not for the good days, but for the Mr Murphy moment and for the Idiot Gorilla who will misuse whatever they have...taught to me early in my designing career. Seems today's designers are never taught that
And yet at some point, it is of diminishing returns to tell the proverbial dumbarse to quit pointing the gun at his head while his finger is on the trigger!
Not my job or yours, or the do gooder forum members who appoint themselves to try to save someone from themselves.
But assuming a person asking the question at least has enough commonsense to ask the question also has enough common sense to take it easy, do some learning along the way, AND not be driving something that is actually overloaded not just in the sense of govt vehicle classification, the responsible response is give them the information with which to make their own decision and at the same time quit crying the sky is falling and potentially having someone go spend far more $ than need be to achieve the same end result.
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blt2ski
Kirkland, Wa
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Joined: 03/15/2001
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Also the actual specs need to be shown better.
Take the tow ratings for example. It meets spec, of going 40 mph up a 5% grade at 109f temp, can pull gcw from a stop up a min 12% grade. You or I jump into the truck, much less a known lead foot like grit. Said rig doesn't go speed limit if 60, or pull from a stand still an 18% grade....said truck doesn't meet owners drivers needs or specs. Their is no how much to derate or increase actual rating to meet those that have tougher needs than some engineer/bean counter/attny/gvmt spec.
At the end of the day, many including myself have had to figure out the hard way, if a truck is up to the task I have at hand. Ie the day a 2500 pulled a fully loaded 3500dw truck up a 20+% grade. On a freeway the 3500 left the 2500 behind .....but I could not get to the last 200 yds to jobsite!
This happened more with trucks in the 70s to 90s.
Reality is, I know where to find specs, formulas to figure out max speed at a give wt, with given frontal area, and max grade I can pull with out stalling out!
Choose your truck wisely! It may turn out as in a few cases for me, the lowered rated truck is the better option!
Marty
92 Navistar dump truck, 7.3L 7 sp, 4.33 gears with a Detroit no spin
2014 Chevy 1500 Dual cab 4x4
92 Red-e-haul 12K equipment trailer
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PA12DRVR
Back in God's Country
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Joined: 09/17/2003
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"PA12DRVR...your story reminds of a buddy who was in the Navy during the 60's-70's and told of what they told him if they ever 'heard' steam escaping. Invisible and that stream was hot enough & escaping fast enough to cut a body in half...told to take a broom and wave it slooowly around and found when the broom was cut in half...don't know how true that one was".
Whether or not it was the best, most efficient, or safest method, that method (or a variant as far as what was waved) was very true "back in the day". During the same piping installing job, one of the more discrete activities was to run each boiler up to 1XX% of pressure / temp / flow and then do the same for each turbine as part of the prep for start up. All of that required that various gas and steam control valves were flowing, while within design parameters, at 1XX% of normal operating flow. That flow, while not indicating any problem, generated a noise that was close enough to escaping superheated steam that checks were needed for leaks. The procedure was to walk down the pipe chase and wave (it was actually a bit more prescribed than that) the broom in a consistent manner, then, barring any leak indications, walk through the pipe chase again with a gas detector held X", Y", and Z" above the floor to seek out gas leaks that might not have got to the level of triggering the primary detectors.
The dual-redundancy aspect was that there were special pressure and temp gauges put in the feed and outflow piping where such gauges provided circa .25 psi gradations and ??? 1 degree??? gradations. Once steady state was reached, which had to be maintained for IIRC 12 hours, any change of more than 2-3 psi and 8-10 degrees required oversight, possibly intervention, and ultimately possibly shutdown. The lower guys on the totem pole (remember, this was back in the day) got to argue who got the broom waving duty (more on edge but shorter) vs. the gauge watching duty, safer but BORING.
The "broom" was actually a rube goldberg frame with visqueen and paper....would still be cut by steam, but would pickup moisture if the leak was microscopic. Either result shut down the boil in process.
Good times from decades ago.
CRL
My RV is a 1946 PA-12
Back in the GWN
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millesecond
wisconsin
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Joined: 04/25/2010
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What the ****!!!!!! I think the answer was on the first page.
Don't you guys camp any more.
2011 GMC 3500
2004 HH Champagne 35sk
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ShinerBock
LVTX
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Joined: 02/22/2015
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Some of ya'll worrying about weight ought to come down here to Texas and see all of the things being towed down I-35 to Mexico. You will burst a blood vessel.
You will have a mini van full of people and junk, towing a Chevy 1500(they love their Chevys down there) with the bed and inside full of junk, and behind that is a small Honda full junk. This is a common site heading down to the dear lease, and I will probably pass four or five of these caravans in my three hour drive.
Not once did I ever see one pulled over by the state troopers or in an accident. I did see many broke down on the side of the road though, but the cops just go right by them.
2014 Ram 2500 6.7L CTD
2016 BMW 2.0L diesel (work and back car)
2023 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon 3.0L Ecodiesel
Highland Ridge Silverstar 378RBS
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