 |
|
|
|
time2roll
Southern California
Senior Member
Joined: 03/21/2005
View Profile
Good Sam RV Club Member
|
Diesel only has that density because it combines with the air we breathe.
If diesel had to pack its own oxygen and contain all pollutants after the burn, the diagram would look a little different.
2001 F150 SuperCrew
2006 Keystone Springdale 249FWBHLS
675w Solar pictures back up
|
tommyznr
NR, WI
Senior Member
Joined: 12/29/2003
View Profile
 Offline
|
time2roll wrote:Diesel only has that density because it combines with the air we breathe.
If diesel had to pack its own oxygen and contain all pollutants after the burn, the diagram would look a little different.
Well sure, but for now oxygen is free and does not add weight to the vehicle which is a compounding problem for other energy/storage options.
Tom
2017 GMC Sierra SLT, Max Tow package
2018 Grand Design Reflection 295RL
|
shelbyfv
TN
Senior Member
Joined: 02/18/2006
View Profile
|
Turtle n Peeps wrote:It's really that simple. There is an even more simple concept that I think you are missing in your armchair engineering tutorials. Our current use of ICE/fossil fuels is not sustainable. This isn't even debated among those qualified to have an opinion. EVs certainly have problems and may only be a stop gap until we go to something better. They may never be useful for RVing as we know it, or for long haul trucking. Nobody knows what 20 years will bring but it's a safe bet our transportation will not be the same as it is now.
|
Turtle n Peeps
California
Senior Member
Joined: 06/23/2008
View Profile
Offline
|
shelbyfv wrote:Turtle n Peeps wrote:It's really that simple. There is an even more simple concept that I think you are missing in your armchair engineering tutorials. Our current use of ICE/fossil fuels is not sustainable. This isn't even debated among those qualified to have an opinion. EVs certainly have problems and may only be a stop gap until we go to something better. They may never be useful for RVing as we know it, or for long haul trucking. Nobody knows what 20 years will bring but it's a safe bet our transportation will not be the same as it is now.
I never said it was, now did I? ![[emoticon]](http://www.rv.net/sharedcontent/cfb/images/rolleyes.gif "rolleyes")
As far as "nobody knows what 20 years will bring but it's a safe bet our transportation will not be the same as it is now."
We can agree on that statement. After all, in the 50's it was predicted that we would all be in flying cars years ago. Or better yet, we would be driving around in our Ford Nucleon's.
70 years later here we are with 99 percent of use still driving cars on roads that explode fossil fuel and where do we get most of our energy? Fossil fuels; that's where.
BTW, I own an electric car, do you?
~ Too many freaks & not enough circuses ~
"Life is not tried ~ it is merely survived ~ if you're standing
outside the fire"
"The best way to get a bad law repealed is to enforce it strictly."- Abraham Lincoln
|
shelbyfv
TN
Senior Member
Joined: 02/18/2006
View Profile
|
Part way there with a Prius. Won't tow my trailer, though. ![[emoticon]](http://www.rv.net/sharedcontent/cfb/images/wink.gif "wink") Clearly there is more incentive to move on than there was 70 years ago. FWIW, we were OK with leaded gas back then!
|
|
|
Thermoguy
Graham, WA
Senior Member
Joined: 01/04/2017
View Profile
Good Sam RV Club Member
Offline
|
Turtle n Peeps wrote:Thermoguy wrote:I hope people realize that finding new and improving battery technology is the #1 thing being worked on by companies today. Everyone knows that Li-Ion is a limited resource, heavy, and doesn't hold much power. EV's are sill a proof of concept, and they are taking off, so the concept works. New battery technology includes Sodium Ion, fuel cell, graphene, and many more. With my limited knowledge, even I know this is the future. There are 2 things manufactures are trying to perfect, lowering the cost, and longer battery life = more power for size and weight. Even the charging systems are in their infancy. They are building more and more each day. Our Government is spending billions to add more charging stations and replace old ones. This will only get more prevalent as more and more people own EV's. Right now they are grocery getters. In my lifetime and many who are on this thread, they will be here and they will replace most common vehicles. Just look at every car manufacturer has an EV and even more are sprouting up such as Tesla and Rivian. As for the semi truck revolution, they are here and will be replacing long haul trucks, along with autonomous vehicles. It's right around the corner. Technology is evolving faster than I can write this message...
You seem to think battery's are new? Battery's and battery powered vehicles have been around since the 1800's. They even pre-date ICE vehicles.
In reality scientists have been working on improving the battery for over a 100 years.
Hell, even LI battery's have been around since the mid 70's to early 80's. Even with the best of technology we have out today I still have to plug in my phone in every night to charge. And my phone uses very little energy compared to a big energy user like a truck. All of those battery's you mentioned have their pluses and minuses. Some are energy density, some are cost, some are they just fail over a short period of time.
As far as the Semi goes, you're in dream land, and here is why. In a few words it's "energy density"......or lack there of.
Let me put up a picture for you that may bring it a little bit better into focus for you:
![[image]](https://i.imgur.com/GByLBu6l.jpg)
See the problem now?
It's really easy to compare electric to gas or electric to diesel. It's not magic. We know how much energy in in a KWH or electricity and we know how much energy is in a gallon of diesel. To get the same amount of energy out of diesel you need the same amount of power electricity. It's really that simple.
There are 7 semi truck manufacturers right now with prototypes or trucks you can buy now.
https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/future-electric-semi-trucks
Outside of Tesla's vaporware 300-500 mile range, most are realistic. These trucks are not long haul yet. But, you can see on the last couple pages, they are working on the charging infrastructure to make this happen. This is now, not in 10-20 years.
My point is just that it is coming. I don't plan to buy one and might never be able to afford an EV with the range of a Diesel pick up, but there are multiple companies with 3/4 ton and 1 ton trucks today like Atlis. There is one I can't think of right now that takes a Chev or GM truck and removes the engine adding 4 electric motors. Energy storage is the only thing holding this technology back and its being worked on daily.
|
shelbyfv
TN
Senior Member
Joined: 02/18/2006
View Profile
|
Thermoguy wrote:My point is just that it is coming. And that's why troll threads like this one are so annoying. We all love our ICEs. And yet we all know we can't keep using them as we do now. ![[emoticon]](http://www.rv.net/sharedcontent/cfb/images/doh.gif "doh")
|
tommyznr
NR, WI
Senior Member
Joined: 12/29/2003
View Profile
Offline
|
Thermoguy wrote: Energy storage is the only thing holding this technology back and its being worked on daily.
Yes and lots of things get worked on daily that fail. Hopefully that won't be the case for battery tech but there seems to currently be a wall at long distance hauling likely due to the size and weight that is required that the current tech uses too much payload.
Give or take 15 years ago fuel cells were worked on daily by lots of people. While many are still at it, I know of a few companies that dissolved their fuel cell programs for more immediate results oriented technologies.
|
time2roll
Southern California
Senior Member
Joined: 03/21/2005
View Profile
Good Sam RV Club Member
|
shelbyfv wrote:And that's why troll threads like this one are so annoying. We all love our ICEs. And yet we all know we can't keep using them as we do now. All the more reason to take care of what is already in the garage.
Although by the time ICEs are discontinued the replacement EV versions might actually be a better solution. Don't judge tomorrow's trucks by what is available today.
|
propchef
NORCAL
Senior Member
Joined: 10/02/2020
View Profile
Offline
|
Turtle n Peeps wrote:Thermoguy wrote:I hope people realize that finding new and improving battery technology is the #1 thing being worked on by companies today. Everyone knows that Li-Ion is a limited resource, heavy, and doesn't hold much power. EV's are sill a proof of concept, and they are taking off, so the concept works. New battery technology includes Sodium Ion, fuel cell, graphene, and many more. With my limited knowledge, even I know this is the future. There are 2 things manufactures are trying to perfect, lowering the cost, and longer battery life = more power for size and weight. Even the charging systems are in their infancy. They are building more and more each day. Our Government is spending billions to add more charging stations and replace old ones. This will only get more prevalent as more and more people own EV's. Right now they are grocery getters. In my lifetime and many who are on this thread, they will be here and they will replace most common vehicles. Just look at every car manufacturer has an EV and even more are sprouting up such as Tesla and Rivian. As for the semi truck revolution, they are here and will be replacing long haul trucks, along with autonomous vehicles. It's right around the corner. Technology is evolving faster than I can write this message...
You seem to think battery's are new? Battery's and battery powered vehicles have been around since the 1800's. They even pre-date ICE vehicles.
In reality scientists have been working on improving the battery for over a 100 years.
Hell, even LI battery's have been around since the mid 70's to early 80's. Even with the best of technology we have out today I still have to plug in my phone in every night to charge. And my phone uses very little energy compared to a big energy user like a truck. All of those battery's you mentioned have their pluses and minuses. Some are energy density, some are cost, some are they just fail over a short period of time.
As far as the Semi goes, you're in dream land, and here is why. In a few words it's "energy density"......or lack there of.
Let me put up a picture for you that may bring it a little bit better into focus for you:
See the problem now?
It's really easy to compare electric to gas or electric to diesel. It's not magic. We know how much energy in in a KWH or electricity and we know how much energy is in a gallon of diesel. To get the same amount of energy out of diesel you need the same amount of power electricity. It's really that simple.
I do not understand that graphic at all. What exactly do you mean by "energy density" or are you referring to "power density"?
Diesel burns to create heat which is used for power. Lithium is used as a material in a storage system for electricity (battery) and does not generate any power of its own. Why don't you compare the energy density of diesel to say, lead? Or sulfuric acid?
And batteries can be recharged. Can't do that with liquid fuel.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
