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Turtle n Peeps
California
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tommyznr wrote:"I've mentioned several times now and have not seen a response to the fact that the gallon of diesel burns and is gone, but the battery can be recharged over and over."
Sure, and maybe I am missing something here, but what does that matter to the person who has to either fill his tank with diesel or plug in his battery to charge it to go 300 miles?
After all, a depleted battery is conceptually the same as an empty tank.
You're not missing anything!!! In fact you're spot on!! Gesus, thank you tommyznr!!!
The above is an energy density problem. When you have to fill your Lighting 6 or 7 times and your diesel truck once while taking a 300 mile RV trip, that is an energy density problem NOT an energy power problem.
Nitromethane makes some of the best "energy power" in a liquid fuel know to mankind. Does this mean we should all change from gasoline or diesel to Nitromethane??? HELL NO!!! Why?
Because much like Lithium Ion batteries, nitro sucks at energy density. A 500 CI engine can burn 15 gallons of nitro in a 1000 foot race!!! That same 500 CI engine can make 12,000 HP!!!! That's not an energy power problem, it's an energy density problem.
Here is a great link explaining battery density problems in things that use high energy demand (like battery powered pickup trucks towing RV trailers.......Or battery powered Semi's with 500 KW/H towing 80 thousand pounds ![[emoticon]](http://www.rv.net/sharedcontent/cfb/images/rolleyes.gif "rolleyes") )
Not much has changed in 10 years since the above article was written. (and it explains until battery chemistry is changed not much will change)
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Huntindog
Phoenix AZ
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propchef wrote:RoyJ wrote:propchef wrote:Again, fuel burns (releasing energy), and lithium is part of a storage system. Apples to bananas. Lithium is rechargeable. Diesel isn't.
Your example doesn't make logical sense.
Not sure if I follow what you're saying.
When comparing batteries to liquid fuel, the only meaningful comparison is energy density.
The power density of liquid fuel is virtually unlimited. Example, you have big enough fuel injectors and oxygen (top fuel dragster), you can output 8000 hp from a 10 gallon tank.
Not for long of course, but now we're talking about energy...
I've mentioned several times now and have not seen a response to the fact that the gallon of diesel burns and is gone, but the battery can be recharged over and over.
That is because you are not making the right comparison
Yes a gallon of diesel is burned and is gone.
And a battery discharges electricity and is gone.
Both the battery and the fuel tank can be refilled over and over..But a battery loses capacity with time and use, where a fuel tank does not. IOW the battery is in essence a fuel tank. It just stores a different fuel
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FishOnOne
The Great State of Texas
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Huntindog wrote:propchef wrote:RoyJ wrote:propchef wrote:Again, fuel burns (releasing energy), and lithium is part of a storage system. Apples to bananas. Lithium is rechargeable. Diesel isn't.
Your example doesn't make logical sense.
Not sure if I follow what you're saying.
When comparing batteries to liquid fuel, the only meaningful comparison is energy density.
The power density of liquid fuel is virtually unlimited. Example, you have big enough fuel injectors and oxygen (top fuel dragster), you can output 8000 hp from a 10 gallon tank.
Not for long of course, but now we're talking about energy...
I've mentioned several times now and have not seen a response to the fact that the gallon of diesel burns and is gone, but the battery can be recharged over and over.
That is because you are not making the right comparison
Yes a gallon of diesel is burned and is gone.
And a battery discharges electricity and is gone.
Both the battery and the fuel tank can be refilled over and over..But a battery loses capacity with time and use, where a fuel tank does not. IOW the battery is in essence a fuel tank. It just stores a different fuel
Well said...
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Lantley
Ellicott City, Maryland
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Using that battery is the tank analogy. The EV can be recharged/refilled via the sun, wind, even nuclear. However I don't think anyone is making more dinosaurs. Once the oil runs dry there is no replenishment.
Hence the term renewable energy!
If you guys can find a way to renew dinosaurs, I imagine the renewable energy guys will stop peddling EV's on us.
Unitil then you'll have to put up with the pipe dream of the EV.
Of course if you are sure the oil will never run out we can all sit around fat and happy sucking down as much fossil fuel as we like.
If you have doubts or are not sure we have multiple generations of fossil fuel available, you may want to consider some alternatives for the future.
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danrclem
Ky.
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According to this 60% of all electricity in the U.S.A comes from coal and natural gas and only 20% comes from renewables. When you charge an electric vehicle battery from the largest source of electricity which is natural gas and coal that natural gas and coal is also gone forever.
https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/electricity/electricity-in-the-us.php
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time2roll
Southern California
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danrclem wrote:According to this 60% of all electricity in the U.S.A comes from coal and natural gas and only 20% comes from renewables. When you charge an electric vehicle battery from the largest source of electricity which is natural gas and coal that natural gas and coal is also gone forever.
https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/electricity/electricity-in-the-us.php And with any luck that 20% will increase by 2% to 5% each year.
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Huntindog
Phoenix AZ
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Joined: 04/08/2002
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Lantley wrote:Using that battery is the tank analogy. The EV can be recharged/refilled via the sun, wind, even nuclear. However I don't think anyone is making more dinosaurs. Once the oil runs dry there is no replenishment.
Hence the term renewable energy!
If you guys can find a way to renew dinosaurs, I imagine the renewable energy guys will stop peddling EV's on us.
Unitil then you'll have to put up with the pipe dream of the EV.
Of course if you are sure the oil will never run out we can all sit around fat and happy sucking down as much fossil fuel as we like.
If you have doubts or are not sure we have multiple generations of fossil fuel available, you may want to consider some alternatives for the future.
Several problems here. The doesn't always shine and the wind doesn't always blow.Nuclear is just trading one form of pollution for another. Flip coin to decide which is worse. Oh yes we can store the sun and winds power in batteries. That is not even close to feasble at the scale it would take for the worlds present population, which shows no signs of slowing down it's increase. The demise of fossil fuel has been predicted several times, and it has always been wrong. Will it run out someday? Probably, but not for a VERY long time. The only real solution is to reduce the earths population I volunteer those that are the most concerned about it to be a team player and take one for the planets future.
Since thats not going to happen, the best bang for the buck is to bring the countries with little emission controls up to our standards. I lived in LA in the 60s, and it has improved dramactically. in spite of having a huge population increase. The sky there is not brown anymore. In any endevour, whether it is racing cars,building HI FI sound systems, etc. the first 95% of performance comes pretty easy and affordably. The higher one goes after that gets more and more expensive and harder. That is where we are in this country with emissions. The good news is that there are plenty of places that can be improved a LOT for not much effort and money. We have already paved the way for them by inventing the solutions. We just have to get them to follow our lead.
* This post was
edited 07/08/22 10:10pm by Huntindog *
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Turtle n Peeps
California
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time2roll wrote:danrclem wrote:According to this 60% of all electricity in the U.S.A comes from coal and natural gas and only 20% comes from renewables. When you charge an electric vehicle battery from the largest source of electricity which is natural gas and coal that natural gas and coal is also gone forever.
https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/electricity/electricity-in-the-us.php And with any luck that 20% will increase by 2% to 5% each year.
![[image]](https://i.imgur.com/uQ34mAil.png)
How has that been working for you in the last 50 years?
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Turtle n Peeps
California
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shelbyfv wrote:rhagfo wrote:shelbyfv wrote:I've edited out the troll comment. Let's just call it tiresome. Everyone knows battery capacity is what keeps EVs from being great for long distance driving. It's not news, few would dispute it. Can we just stipulate that and move on? As for "Our government wants us to all switch away from fossil fuels" it's hardly just the government. Every rational person who isn't a hermit understands this is something that has to be done.
Well with the electrical grid in it’s current state, it isn’t going to happen tomorrow. Actually, the grid isn't as much of an issue as some imagine. Easy to Google if you are interested.
You might and try learning about what is going on in California RIGHT NOW. PG&E can't even keep our AC on when it gets hot on some days. I live next to the biggest Geothermal unit in the world and have family and friends that work there. They said that there will be rolling blackouts this year too because of too much demand.
This has nothing to do with energy density but too little electrons and to much demand. Think millions of electric cars are going to help?
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Grit dog
Black Diamond, WA
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And while Cali and other areas have issues literally every year during peak summer demand, the dreamers will tell you it’s not a problem, but that Texas was evil for having problems for 1 week during a streak of ALL TIME low temperatures combined with Covid stuff in general and All time record snowfall. (iE the equivalent of all of Cali experiencing a month of Phoenix AZ summer temps. )
Nothing has changed other than, in the last few years, I’ve learned just how dumb and gullible a large percentage of our population is.
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