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Turtle n Peeps
California
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Joined: 06/23/2008
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propchef wrote:I do not understand that graphic at all. What exactly do you mean by "energy density" or are you referring to "power density"?
Diesel burns to create heat which is used for power. Lithium is used as a material in a storage system for electricity (battery) and does not generate any power of its own. Why don't you compare the energy density of diesel to say, lead? Or sulfuric acid?
And batteries can be recharged. Can't do that with liquid fuel.
Or teachers have failed us. They really have. We have went from a "it's a law of physics" society to "if we can just hope and dream hard enough we will make it happen" society. ![[emoticon]](http://www.rv.net/sharedcontent/cfb/images/rolleyes.gif "rolleyes")
Ok, so if you don't know what energy density is here is a guy that explains it in the most simplest fashion I can think of.
Just watch this video and then see if you can come back and truly say: LI batteries will work great in "long haul trucks like the Tesla Semi or even towing a small RV trailer." And please remember, this guy is not accounting for things like extreme grades, extreme temp swings, and things like that and many more that long haul trucks and RV'ers encounter.
Just wait till these guys show the Lightning up against lets say the new Chevy baby Dmax in a towing contest. See how far that baby Dmax can go. We already know the Lightning can go about 86 miles on a charge towing a small trailer.
If they do this, they should pick a route like 300 or 350 miles (the average most RV'er travel in a day) and see how long it takes for each rig to pull into a predetermined campground. Now that would be realistic and applicable for this forum.
~ Too many freaks & not enough circuses ~
"Life is not tried ~ it is merely survived ~ if you're standing
outside the fire"
"The best way to get a bad law repealed is to enforce it strictly."- Abraham Lincoln
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shelbyfv
TN
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Joined: 02/18/2006
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OP, I figure you are of advanced age, as am I. I'd be really surprised if during our remaining RVing years we'll be forced to use an EV. Don't know if you are using a MH or a trailer but AFAIK tomorrow we can both go out and crank up or hook up and hit the road. I don't see a need to get so worked up about this.![[emoticon]](http://www.rv.net/sharedcontent/cfb/images/scratchead.gif "scratchead")
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Turtle n Peeps
California
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shelbyfv wrote:OP, I figure you are of advanced age, as am I. I'd be really surprised if during our remaining RVing years we'll be forced to use an EV. Don't know if you are using a MH or a trailer but AFAIK tomorrow we can both go out and crank up or hook up and hit the road. I don't see a need to get so worked up about this.
![[emoticon]](http://www.rv.net/sharedcontent/cfb/images/huh.gif "huh") . Not worked up in the slightest.
When someone does not understand something like energy density I try to explain it to them so they have a little better understanding of the world they live in. Sometimes I fail and I try to find a link to a video or a chart or whatever that explains it better or different than I can.
A lot of people try to drive a square peg into a round hole. Why? I have no idea?
Are electric cars bad? Nope, I own one and really like it. Is it the end all be all? Nope, in fact it is super complex and the battery (to the tune of 10 grand apiece) has failed twice on me. Thank God for a warrantee!!
The round hole'rs are trying their best to pound that square peg long haul Semi into the square hole. All they have to do is switch that long haul Semi to a school bus and they would have something. Or a garbage truck. Yep, they would still have something. Or a motorcycle, yep, still have something. Or a Ford Lightning that can get a load of boards from HD. Yep, they still have something.
This is a RV towing forum and we talk about vehicles that can tow things, like the new Ford Lightning. When we talk about it and show videos, some people get all mad that it can only tow a small trailer 86 miles before it cuts power and you have to find a charge station ASAP.
As more and more manufactures start turning out E trucks it will become abundantly clear how flaccid LI batteries are for towing things. Whether that be a long haul Semi or a half ton pickup truck towing a small trailer.
Until we get a better "energy density" battery (which who knows how long that will take) towing something with a battery powered vehicle will be nothing but an exercise in frustration.
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shelbyfv
TN
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What are you towing with currently?
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propchef
NORCAL
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Joined: 10/02/2020
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Turtle n Peeps wrote:propchef wrote:I do not understand that graphic at all. What exactly do you mean by "energy density" or are you referring to "power density"?
Diesel burns to create heat which is used for power. Lithium is used as a material in a storage system for electricity (battery) and does not generate any power of its own. Why don't you compare the energy density of diesel to say, lead? Or sulfuric acid?
And batteries can be recharged. Can't do that with liquid fuel.
Or teachers have failed us. They really have. We have went from a "it's a law of physics" society to "if we can just hope and dream hard enough we will make it happen" society.
Ok, so if you don't know what energy density is here is a guy that explains it in the most simplest fashion I can think of.
Just watch this video and then see if you can come back and truly say: LI batteries will work great in "long haul trucks like the Tesla Semi or even towing a small RV trailer." And please remember, this guy is not accounting for things like extreme grades, extreme temp swings, and things like that and many more that long haul trucks and RV'ers encounter.
Just wait till these guys show the Lightning up against lets say the new Chevy baby Dmax in a towing contest. See how far that baby Dmax can go. We already know the Lightning can go about 86 miles on a charge towing a small trailer.
If they do this, they should pick a route like 300 or 350 miles (the average most RV'er travel in a day) and see how long it takes for each rig to pull into a predetermined campground. Now that would be realistic and applicable for this forum.
Yes, logic is missing.
You still didn't explain your graphic.
Seems you aren't aware of the differences, so lets see if I can help.
https://energyeducation.ca/encyclopedia/Energy_density_vs_power_density
Quote:Energy density is the amount of energy in a given mass (or volume) and power density is the amount of power in a given mass. The distinction between the two is similar to the difference between Energy and power. Batteries have a higher energy density than capacitors, but a capacitor has a higher power density than a battery. This difference comes from batteries being able to store more energy, but capacitors can give off energy more quickly.
Again, fuel burns (releasing energy), and lithium is part of a storage system. Apples to bananas. Lithium is rechargeable. Diesel isn't.
Your example doesn't make logical sense.
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Turtle n Peeps
California
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Joined: 06/23/2008
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If you don't understand the engineer in the video I posted I can't explain it any better than he does. Sorry, I tried.
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Turtle n Peeps
California
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shelbyfv wrote:What are you towing with currently?
3/4 ton Dmax.
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shelbyfv
TN
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Joined: 02/18/2006
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Turtle n Peeps wrote:shelbyfv wrote:What are you towing with currently?
3/4 ton Dmax. Has anyone prohibited you from driving it or buying fuel? Didn't think so. You seem to be the only one on the forum who is worried that someone will take your truck away and make you tow with an EV. Propchef has owned you on this one, btw.
* This post was
edited 07/07/22 01:31pm by shelbyfv *
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Thermoguy
Graham, WA
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Joined: 01/04/2017
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shelbyfv wrote:Turtle n Peeps wrote:shelbyfv wrote:What are you towing with currently?
3/4 ton Dmax. Has anyone prohibited you from driving it or buying fuel? Didn't think so. You seem to be the only one on the forum who is worried that someone will take your truck away and make you tow with an EV. Propchef has owned you on this one, btw. I'm putting you on the iggy list as a troll. .
Wow - I think that is harsh and calling him a troll is unfair in my opinion. His comments are constructive, have merit, and he's held up his comments with facts that hold weight. I hardly call that a troll. I think we can all agree that this forum is about RV's. But, we also have to consider that other forms of transportation effect our use of RV's. This thread started because the use of an electric truck was an "epic fail" when it comes to using an EV to tow an RV. Was it? Did it tow the trailer? Yes, it even towed it better than a similar equipped ICE could, depending on how that ICE vehicle was equipped. EV's have more torque and more HP compare to a similar ICE, so, yes an EV can tow a trailer. The issue, and argument if there is one, is about how far it can travel with that trailer. My argument is that LiIon is a temporary battery solution to prove the concept of vehicles powered by something other than traditional fuels. Although an EV is a coal powered vehicle that just stores power in a battery on board, so technically it is still using traditional fuels. Others are arguing that batteries have been around a long time and might not change in our lifetime and even if they do, they wont have the storage capacity to effectively tow a trailer more than a few hundred miles then take hours to charge. This is a valuable argument for an RV forum. We will see as the future is now and things are changing quickly.
As for the comment about not being able to get gas for your ICE... That might be a bigger issue than you think. States are already outlawing the sale of ICE vehicles after a certain year, along with that they will stop selling fuel some years later. Our government wants us to all switch away from fossil fuels. We will see how many years or 10's of years that takes, but it's on the roadmap.
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shelbyfv
TN
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I've edited out the troll comment. Let's just call it tiresome. Everyone knows battery capacity is what keeps EVs from being great for long distance driving. It's not news, few would dispute it. Can we just stipulate that and move on? As for "Our government wants us to all switch away from fossil fuels" it's hardly just the government. Every rational person who isn't a hermit understands this is something that has to be done.
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