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Open Roads Forum  >  Around the Campfire

 > How many folks just want to gripe about EVs?

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Rick Jay

Greater Springfield area, MA

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Posted: 09/17/22 09:59am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

shelbyfv wrote:

Tax incentives encourage all sorts of stuff including home mortgages and having kids.


I had to chuckle at this. It is an entirely correct statement, of course. But anyone who could be persuaded or convinced to have a child (or another child) for the sole purpose of tax benefits, in my opinion, would easily be swayed by the "savings" arguments to purchase an EV. LOL [emoticon]

There is A LOT more to most things than tax liability. [emoticon] According to this post it costs over $300,000 to raise a child through age 17. KHN Morning Breakout - Cost to Raise a Child in 2022.

~Rick


2005 Georgie Boy Cruise Master 3625 DS on a Workhorse W-22
Rick, Gail, 1 girl (26-Angel since 2008), 1 girl (21), 2 boys (22 & 19).
2001 Honda Odyssey, Demco Aluminator tow bar & tow plate, SMI Silent Partner brake controller.


shelbyfv

TN

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Posted: 09/17/22 11:54am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

I don't think folks who are buying EVs are doing it primarily because they think they'll save money. It's in our best interest for people to buy EVs and the tax breaks may give them a nudge or maybe help those who are less affluent participate. On the other hand, hard to figure why we are still subsidizing population growth.[emoticon]

Rick Jay

Greater Springfield area, MA

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Posted: 09/17/22 12:10pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

shelbyfv wrote:

It's in our best interest for people to buy EVs...


I really have to disagree with this statement. From beginning to end of the entire process, there is no clear "best" between EVs and ICE vehicles. As a daily work commuting vehicle, sure, an EV might possibly be a good solution. But for those who routinely have to travel further than the allowed range? Not so much. Or travel with young kids who'd have to deal with the recharging breaks on a vacation trip? Or hauling heavy loads, like our RVs? These things aren't ready to handle those challenges.

Sure, overtime the technology will allow this and folks will then naturally move in that direction.

As I said in my previous post, we SHOULD BE pushing PLUG-IN HYBRID vehicles now. It's a sensible compromise that has the best of both worlds. EV use for short, local trips. Gas engine hybrid use for long trips which will make use of a refueling infrastructure which is already in place. Should you come home from work and you don't have any electricity to charge due to storms, or such, no problem, you can still get to work the next day on the gas engine. They're a sensible compromise. Smaller batteries, less charging required, they can cover the round-trip range most commuters need going to work and back. But if something happens and there's not enough charge? No sweat, the gas engine will get you to wherever you need to go.

To the best of my knowledge, there is not an electric vehicle made that would replace the convenience of our Honda Odyssey minivan on a long trip. And I don't see one becoming available for 5-10 years, so no EV for us any time soon. But a plug-in hybrid minivan, should Honda decide to incorporate that into their offerings, would definitely get my attention.

~Rick

Grit dog

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Posted: 09/17/22 12:20pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

PButler96 wrote:

eubank wrote:

Here's a good place to start: Simple facts.

[image]


Lynn



Those simple facts were for 2021 models, which means the numbers are probably from 2 years ago. A nothing burger.

Personally I take issue with tax credits for EV's, or anything else FWIW. If they're so great they can stand on their own merits, no incentives needed at someone else's expense. The government does not generate any money so the credit is payed for by other taxpayers.


Yeah, but those nothing burgers cost way more now.
And yup, the greenie weenie tax credits come at the expense of everyone’s total tax liability.
But then, hey, it’s not really worse than throwing free dollars out to everyone to “stimulate” the economy, like happened what 3 times during the Rona?


2016 Ram 2500, MotorOps.ca EFIlive tuned, 5” turbo back, 6" lift on 37s
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shelbyfv

TN

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Posted: 09/17/22 03:19pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Rick Jay wrote:

shelbyfv wrote:

It's in our best interest for people to buy EVs...


I really have to disagree with this statement. From beginning to end of the entire process, there is no clear "best" between EVs and ICE vehicles.
~Rick
I don't think you'll find anyone with expertise who agrees with you. ICEs aren't sustainable and there isn't anyone maintaining they are. However, you are correct that EVs currently don't suit everyone's needs. Truth be told, we may never see fifth wheels towed by EVs. But it will be the 5ers that become extinct, not the EVs. JMO, but I think the more folks who adopt EVs, the less pressure on those of us who enjoy ICEs for our hobby. Sort of like how classic car guys don't have to worry about emission rules, we may become fringe enough that we can fly under the radar.[emoticon] Again, thanks to the mods for putting an EV thread in Campfire where it belongs.

* This post was edited 09/17/22 04:32pm by shelbyfv *

Groover

Pulaski, TN

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Posted: 09/17/22 05:21pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Rick Jay wrote:

Sure, I'll jump on this bandwagon.

I think EV's are being pushed upon us and forcing technology upon us that will be outdated and very expensive to repair for those of us who keep our vehicles for a long time.

Do I think that eventually that will be the way vehicles are powered? Most likely, unless something better comes along. But we're forcing the technology, creating powertrains and batteries that will be obsolete before the useful life of the vehicle has been reached, and ultimately will just add to the ever increasing landfill piles.

I think Plug-In HYBRID vehicles should be what is pushed now and probably for the next 10+ years to give the EVs a chance to develop an infrastructure AND to allow the electrical grid time to expand and grow to fill the demand for widespread use of EVs. The batteries are MUCH smaller so each plug-in hybrid battery made is much less damaging to the planet. Or, put another way, more than a half a dozen plug-in hybrid batteries could be made using the resources for just one EV.

A plug-in hybrid has an effectively an unlimited range, except for fuel stops. Long distance travel can be done with little change to our current life style. Short distance travel such as typical work commutes, can make use of the batteries for the first 40-60 miles, which is well within the average work commute. If you need to run extra errands that day, the gas engine will get you where you need to go. The distribution network for gasoline is already in place, so we don't have to search high and low for charging stations.

I can't imagine having an EV minivan loaded up with the kids, heading out on vacation, and having to stop for potentially a few hours to recharge. And the EVs I've researched would could carry such a family are in the $80k+ range. A good gas powered minivan is in the $40-50K range, and plug-in hybrid hardware would only add a few thousand dollars to that platform. MUCH more economical, affordable and practical for middle-class families.

Like I said, I think EVs WILL be the way we travel in the coming decades. But I don't like seeing "bleeding edge" technology forced upon the population, especially when it doesn't make good sense, given all of the issues. It effectively becomes a burdensome tax upon the lower and middle class citizens.

For the time being, I would like to see the plug-in hybrids be the technology which is developed. In my opinion, it's a sensible compromise. [emoticon]

~Rick


"A plug-in hybrid has an effectively an unlimited range, except for fuel stops."
The same goes for EVs

"For the time being, I would like to see the plug-in hybrids be the technology which is developed. In my opinion, it's a sensible compromise."
I rejected the PHV concept because it just didn't seem worthwhile plugging it in and unplugging it for just 40 or 50 miles of range and marginal performance in that distance. Surveys have shown that most PHV owners don't ever plug them in. At least, they didn't 2 years ago. Maybe at the current gas prices it is worthwhile to more people.

"I don't like seeing "bleeding edge" technology forced upon the population"
I totally agree with that. If the government wants to control fuel consumption(aka carbon output) the should do it directly as a tax and let each driver decide how to respond. My 86 year old mother only drives 3,000 miles per year and wouldn't save money with an EV even at $10. It would never compensate for the carbon output of making a new car to replace hers. I have a 2005 Ranger and a minivan that are handy for certain tasks but only get driven in the 3 to 5,000 miles per year range.

Groover

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Posted: 09/17/22 05:25pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

shelbyfv wrote:

Rick Jay wrote:

shelbyfv wrote:

It's in our best interest for people to buy EVs...


I really have to disagree with this statement. From beginning to end of the entire process, there is no clear "best" between EVs and ICE vehicles.
~Rick
I don't think you'll find anyone with expertise who agrees with you. ICEs aren't sustainable and there isn't anyone maintaining they are. However, you are correct that EVs currently don't suit everyone's needs. Truth be told, we may never see fifth wheels towed by EVs. But it will be the 5ers that become extinct, not the EVs. JMO, but I think the more folks who adopt EVs, the less pressure on those of us who enjoy ICEs for our hobby. Sort of like how classic car guys don't have to worry about emission rules, we may become fringe enough that we can fly under the radar.[emoticon] Again, thanks to the mods for putting an EV thread in Campfire where it belongs.


"I think the more folks who adopt EVs, the less pressure on those of us who enjoy ICEs for our hobby. "

Absolutely!
I drive my Tesla whenever it is appropriate and available but I have a motorhome and an F150 with trailer tow package for other types of trips.

Fisherman

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Posted: 09/17/22 06:15pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

The way I look at it, for the moment and near future, EV's may be okay for work commutes and grocery wagons. When it comes to towing, not so good. Who wants to spend hours recharging on holiday time just to get to your destination. The further you get away from highly populated areas, charge stations become like unobtainium, and then only small numbers. When I go into the woods for remote boondocking, it's a complete forgetaboutit. Not happening period. And why should I run a generator for recharging, that's not the idea behind EV's.

atreis

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Posted: 09/18/22 05:20am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

eubank wrote:

I'll go ahead with my 2 cents' worth:

1. I don't think EVs are there yet for heavy towing. Going to have to continue with ICE vehicles for a while longer.

2. One concern I have in particular is locating a lightweight EV auto that can be towed four-down. I don't know that it exists yet, but I could be wrong. (For the interim, one can have a four-down towable lightweight auto converted to EV. I've been toying with the idea for my MGB.)

[emoticon]
Lynn


A reasonable post with real concerns. [emoticon] Yes, they're not yet great at heavy towing. They could be, but would be horrendously expensive right now. It'll take some time yet.

No, there are no BEVs that are 4-down towable. There are a number of FWD models that can be towed on a dolly, including the reasonably priced Chevy Bolt, the upcoming FWD Equinox, the FWD Nissan Ariya, and others.

There are some hybrids and PHEVs that are 4-down towable though.


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JRscooby

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Posted: 09/18/22 06:23am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

atreis wrote:

eubank wrote:

I'll go ahead with my 2 cents' worth:

1. I don't think EVs are there yet for heavy towing. Going to have to continue with ICE vehicles for a while longer.

2. One concern I have in particular is locating a lightweight EV auto that can be towed four-down. I don't know that it exists yet, but I could be wrong. (For the interim, one can have a four-down towable lightweight auto converted to EV. I've been toying with the idea for my MGB.)

[emoticon]
Lynn


A reasonable post with real concerns. [emoticon] Yes, they're not yet great at heavy towing. They could be, but would be horrendously expensive right now. It'll take some time yet.

No, there are no BEVs that are 4-down towable. There are a number of FWD models that can be towed on a dolly, including the reasonably priced Chevy Bolt, the upcoming FWD Equinox, the FWD Nissan Ariya, and others.

There are some hybrids and PHEVs that are 4-down towable though.


My thoughts; If a family is well off enough to have a RV it is near sure bet they have more than 1 vehicle. And this also true for most families in this country. Now if you have 2 cars, do they both need to tow heavy? Do they both need to be able to travel long distance without taking breaks to charge?
4 down towing; My understanding is EV does not have a transmission, so that is less problem than ICE. If can't disconnect wheels from motor, so what? You can spin a motor at max RPM, with no power to it with no harm. And will have less friction than spinning axles, gears and driveshafts in the 4X4s everybody uses now. If a manufacturer wanted to step into that market would likely sell many.

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