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Open Roads Forum  >  Tech Issues

 > Honda 2000 won’t run my late model home furnace

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Gdetrailer

PA

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Posted: 10/08/22 09:18am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

austinjenna wrote:

So forgive my lack of electrical knowledge but is all that I would need to do is get a 110 plug, then run a small jumper from the ground to the neutral(white/silver) side of the plug and plug that into the generator?

My assumption is that instead of using a 110 plug I could also do it for the 30 amp outlet on the generator and therefore free up a 110 outlet. My genny has 2 - 110 outlets and 1-30 amp outlet

Thanks


That is a "it depends" type of question.

It depends on the exact type of gen you have (IE inverter/non inverter).

It depends on how that gen is wired (IE120V only, 120V/240V, switchable 120V only or 120V/240V).

It depends on what brand of gen you have. Some brands already tie the neutral and ground positions together internally so no need to add a plug..

It depends on if that gen is going to be OK with having the neutral and ground positions connected together. Some inverter gens may take issue to having neutral and ground position wired together..

If you have not run into a problem with an open neutral to ground on the gen then no need to add it.

2oldman

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Posted: 10/08/22 09:37am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Tvov wrote:

Starting current for a blower fan would exceed a generator's ability?
If that were true the gen would overload and quit. I've asked what the gen does but no response.

Grit dog

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Posted: 10/08/22 10:22am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

The problem is because your lavish lifestyle lead you to purchase a quality expensive unnecessary Jap generator and you’re being punished for your ability and decision to do so…..
Just ask Nammedvac70….

(This was a joke for those not as quick on the draw lol)


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Gdetrailer

PA

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Posted: 10/08/22 10:28am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

2oldman wrote:

Tvov wrote:

Starting current for a blower fan would exceed a generator's ability?
If that were true the gen would overload and quit. I've asked what the gen does but no response.


[emoticon]

Here is the important info that the OP posted..

C Schomer wrote:

Sorry, I’ve been away! It’s NG 35kbtuh ECM induced draft 96%/condensing 120vac 2016 model. I retired from HVAC but the older Models that I was trained on had different ECM motors. They were all 1 hp and the speeds were selected with dip switches. Even those motors only drew 75 W on half speed. This tiny furnace that I have has three selectable speeds by switching taps on the motor and the wattage will be super low. The furnace and stat do nothing when connected to the generator.


Notice, it IS a small furnace using ECM motors, ECM motors are variable speed and do not have a large startup surge, they are "soft" started from a microprocessor drive unit.

HERE is a spec sheet for a 35K BTU home furnace. 35K furnace uses a 1/3 HP ECM motor.. 1/3HP is well within what a 2000W gen is able to handle.

I think IF the gen was going into overload, shuts down or does a happy dance the OP would have mentioned that.

I suspect from the lack of that information that the gen is perfectly fine and the fault is not with the gen as far as overload but with the fact that the CONTROL BOARD of the furnace is detecting no connection between the neutral and ground of the gen.. When a fault is detected by the control board, typically the control board is designed to not start the ignition sequence (IE no inducer fan, no air handler fan, no ignition, no gas valve, NO RESPONSE).

Newer furnaces like what the OP has, have many safety designs built in and these safeties all must be met before the control board ever starts the furnace ignition sequence.

Modern home furnaces are designed for being connected to your home electrical system. A portable generator is not always setup just like your main home panel where all neutrals and grounds are tied together in the main panel.

OP has nothing to lose by adding that little jumper to a plug and see if that solves the problem (I believe it will).

OP could of coarse simply add a transfer switch to their furnace like this..

[image]

Which should preserve the neutral/ground bond through the main breaker panel and doesn't require OP to have to rewire the furnace or wire the furnace on a plug (I personally am not a fan of wiring a furnace to a plug in to the mains for various reasons)..

[image]

Found HERE

Bobbo

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Posted: 10/08/22 08:32pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

austinjenna wrote:

So forgive my lack of electrical knowledge but is all that I would need to do is get a 110 plug, then run a small jumper from the ground to the neutral(white/silver) side of the plug and plug that into the generator?

My assumption is that instead of using a 110 plug I could also do it for the 30 amp outlet on the generator and therefore free up a 110 outlet. My genny has 2 - 110 outlets and 1-30 amp outlet

Thanks

For 5 years, I have been using a bonding plug, exactly as you describe, so my PI EMS will let my Honda EU2000i current into the trailer. I finally got tired of fooling with the plug this summer and opened up the Honda's faceplate. I jumpered the GROUND to the NEUTRAL on the Honda's receptacle, itself. So, yes, you can jumper the back of the 30 amp outlet. Or, if it is easier, jumper the back of the 15 amp outlet. It doesn't matter which outlet you jumper.

A few weeks later, I came across another camper who was complaining about having to disable his PI EMS when running his generator. I gave him my (now unneeded) bonding plug and told him to plug it INTO THE GENERATOR, ITSELF.


Bobbo and Lin
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austinjenna

Columbus, Ohio

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Posted: 10/09/22 04:52am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Quote:

austinjenna wrote:

So forgive my lack of electrical knowledge but is all that I would need to do is get a 110 plug, then run a small jumper from the ground to the neutral(white/silver) side of the plug and plug that into the generator?

My assumption is that instead of using a 110 plug I could also do it for the 30 amp outlet on the generator and therefore free up a 110 outlet. My genny has 2 - 110 outlets and 1-30 amp outlet

Thanks

For 5 years, I have been using a bonding plug, exactly as you describe, so my PI EMS will let my Honda EU2000i current into the trailer. I finally got tired of fooling with the plug this summer and opened up the Honda's faceplate. I jumpered the GROUND to the NEUTRAL on the Honda's receptacle, itself. So, yes, you can jumper the back of the 30 amp outlet. Or, if it is easier, jumper the back of the 15 amp outlet. It doesn't matter which outlet you jumper.

A few weeks later, I came across another camper who was complaining about having to disable his PI EMS when running his generator. I gave him my (now unneeded) bonding plug and told him to plug it INTO THE GENERATOR, ITSELF.




Thanks. I have an EU2000 and it does run my house furnace and have done that when the power has gone out in winter. I was curious about this for my daughter who will be getting a new furnace and has a ryobi inverter generator and being able to set her up and what might need to be done.



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wa8yxm

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Posted: 10/09/22 07:50am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Half a horse power (Common blower size) is 500 watts running (Approximently, I know that's not the right math but the motor is not 100% efficient so that's what it takes) starting can be 2500 or more.


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Gdetrailer

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Posted: 10/09/22 10:52am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

wa8yxm wrote:

Half a horse power (Common blower size) is 500 watts running (Approximently, I know that's not the right math but the motor is not 100% efficient so that's what it takes) starting can be 2500 or more.


OP has a 35K BTU 90+ furnace.

It won't have even a "half horse" fan motor.

Even though the furnace documentation may not be the same as the OPs (since they didn't give model, I guessed using documentation for any newer high efficiency furnace) I suspect the that small of furnce will have similar limited CFMs which does not require a large motor. The one I linked states 1/3 HP motor, by pure math 1/3 HP would be roughly 250W or 2 amps at 120V. This is very doable with a small gen even a 1000W gen should be able to run that furnace.

If OP furnace was larger like 75K BTU then yes, a much larger fan motor would be required and employed in order to get the correct CFM of airflow. 35K BTU furnace does not require a huge amount of airflow and hence a much smaller fan motor can be used.

The OP also clearly stated that their 35K BTU furnace is using ECM type of motors.

You can read up on ECM motors HERE

ECM motors by their design do not have a large startup surge, they are actually soft started.

"An ECM motor, known as Electrically Commutated Motors, is the fastest it has ever been, with unparalleled airflow delivery to meet the necessity of a heating or cooling system. It can be used in hundreds of different applications. It is a self-regulating motor that do not need the assistance of any other system to operate. But what causes an ECM motor to work? How does the motor know when to speed up and when to slow down without external sensors to track pressure, temperature, or something else?

ECM motor has a microprocessor which is a crucial factor in its ability to have higher performance. The microprocessor is used to sequentially energize and de-energize each winding of the stator, generating an electrical current. The processor-based pulse control generates a magnetic field, which allows the rotor inside this ring of magnets to spin. The microprocessor employs a closed-loop feedback system to more accurately regulate the magnetic fields, thus reducing the eddy currents and losses experienced by conventional mechanically commutated motors. This also allows for the use of a brushless motor, which reduces points of physical contact within the motor’s moving parts and makes them more durable.
"


Think of a ECM motor as more like a DC brushless motor like what is typically used in computer fans, only on a much larger scale. It is fully RPM controllable from start up to full speed and back down to zero without large startup currents.

C Schomer

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Posted: 10/09/22 08:28pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

I found my bonded connector in the basement today and it is the 15 amp male to Rv 30 amp female connector but I made this connector several years ago and my CRS is too bad to remember why!
The thermostat and furnace did nothing when connected to the generator so the generator didn’t need to do anything either.
I cut my teeth on oil burners and stack safety controls, and then on to RA 890s, Purple Peepers, Fire-eyes, 1/2 wave flame rectification,micro amp measuring, oil-free magnetic bearing compressor and everything else the HVAC and industrial process control manufactures could come up with… until I retired in 2015, anyway.
ECM motors are awesome… The incredibly strong permanent magnets make them so efficient and they ARE inherently soft start. I’m not worried about the in rush current.
My generator is at home and I don’t remember the exact model but I know it is a 2000 and it must be inverter because it has a switch to enable it to run at only the rpm necessary. It also has a duplex 15 amp receptacle and no 30 amp RV so I know it only generates one phase.
Gdetrailer, thanks also for the tip to do the bonding inside the generator… I will probably do that instead of making another bonded connector. Then if the furnace runs on the generator I will make my own transfer switch.
I will return… in January!

* This post was edited 10/09/22 08:38pm by C Schomer *

Gdetrailer

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Posted: 10/09/22 08:40pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

There you go!

Thanks for replying..

That should solve your problem and hopefully folks here jump off the generator is too small to run your furnace band wagon..

I think some folks are thinking a home furnace works like a RV furnace since a RV furnace starts the fan blower motor BEFORE ignition..

For folks that don't seem to understand, home furnaces do not have the same startup sequence as a RV furnace.

RV furnaces because the draft inducer fan and the main fan are connected to the same motor shaft the main fan must also run before the burner lights.

On home furnaces the fan motor is the LAST item to start, the draft inducer (completely separate 1/20 HP motor) starts first, then the control board starts ignition of the burner, once flame has been proven and only after the flame is proven then the fan is started.

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