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mkirsch
Rochester, NY
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Joined: 04/09/2004
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rjstractor wrote:mkirsch wrote:Our means have not kept pace with the price of goods and services, even if you don't consider recent events.
Work harder, get a better job, right? You need to be pulling in a 6-figure income to have the buying power of the average family in the 1950's. There are only so many middle management jobs out there.
You're not wrong about the cost of goods and services, but a young person doesn't need to be middle management or even have a college degree to make six figures, at least in my area. In my job I talk with lots of folks in the construction trades, mostly sprinkler fitters and fire alarm technicians, who are screaming for qualified apprentices. Once they make journeyman that six figures is a reality. Where they run into problems is finding people who are actually willing to show up every day, work hard, be eager to learn and get cold, dirty and uncomfortable once in a while.
When they make journeyman, sure. Correct me if I'm wrong but in most trades, getting to journeyman is a SEVEN YEAR MINIMUM commitment. During that time you work for minimum wage, or even for free, as an apprentice, sweeping floors and doing very little related to the trade, all while being treated like dirt.
Then you'll turn around and grouse about how young people need to be coddled and hand-held, right? It's not either-or. There is a middle ground between abusive and coddling. Don't give me "That's how I came up through," because times have changed. Obviously the old way doesn't work anymore because you're short on skilled workers.
Putting 10-ply tires on half ton trucks since aught-four.
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mkirsch
Rochester, NY
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Joined: 04/09/2004
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Grit dog wrote:They NEVER bought brand new cars.
Yeah, "be fiscally responsible, buy used cars."
They don't manufacture USED cars. They only manufacture NEW cars.
Put another way, someone has to buy the NEW cars in order for there to be any USED cars out there to be "fiscally responsible" with.
Unless you buy some clapped-out chitbox, the cost of used these days doesn't pencil out. You pay almost-new price for a 3 year old used truck with 45,000 miles on it, except with no discount off "list," less on trade-in, no dealer incentives (which Town Chrysler Dodge Jeep in Buffalo are offering on their RAM pickups, BTW), and worse financing terms. Heck my bank won't loan money on a vehicle >5 years old!
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4x4ord
Alberta
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Joined: 12/23/2010
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Grit dog wrote:shelbyfv wrote:^^^ Yep. Folks should be pondering why that is, instead of all the distractions they get lathered up about.
And by the same token, I have no issue with people being stupid with their money. Buy new and buy often is my motto to them!
I'm trying to take your advise but buying often is proving to be kind of difficult. They rolled my latest '22 order into a '23 and it will likely be a year before I see it. I've already had to do on oil change on my current rig, ![[emoticon]](http://www.rv.net/sharedcontent/cfb/images/biggrin.gif "biggrin") . Just for kicks I'll be calling the Ram store today to find out what the wait time is on new dually.
2022 F350 SRW Platinum short box 4x4.
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2008 Citation Platinum XL 34.5
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MFL
Midwest
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Joined: 11/28/2012
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4x4ord said: "Just for kicks I'll be calling the Ram store today to find out what the wait time is on new dually."
While that may be a good option, changing screen name to 4x4Ram, may require starting over as a new member.
IMO, the choices are buying new often, 1-2 years, or keeping long term 10 yrs or more, for best bang/buck. I agree, buying used 1-3 years old, not best option for most.
Jerry
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Grit dog
Black Diamond, WA
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Joined: 05/06/2013
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rjstractor wrote:mkirsch wrote:Our means have not kept pace with the price of goods and services, even if you don't consider recent events.
Work harder, get a better job, right? You need to be pulling in a 6-figure income to have the buying power of the average family in the 1950's. There are only so many middle management jobs out there.
You're not wrong about the cost of goods and services, but a young person doesn't need to be middle management or even have a college degree to make six figures, at least in my area. In my job I talk with lots of folks in the construction trades, mostly sprinkler fitters and fire alarm technicians, who are screaming for qualified apprentices. Once they make journeyman that six figures is a reality. Where they run into problems is finding people who are actually willing to show up every day, work hard, be eager to learn and get cold, dirty and uncomfortable once in a while.
Bingo. My kid and his buddy were pulling down $42 an hour this summer, fresh off the turnip truck after their first year in college. ZERO construction experience.
Why? Exactly what you said AND the fact that they were willing to WORK and work hard.
By the end of the summer, Got a call from one of the awesome laborers that I hired years ago, still working for the company, saying he's never seen a 19 year old kid (who's about 150lbs soaking wet) pull a 30' high cycle vibrator on an entire pour for about 6 hours straight.
But he worked like 10 weeks this summer and went back to school with over $10k in the bank after whatever he spent this summer.
Had to remind a friend's little brother who was complaining recently that his "covid pay" went away and he was back to $16.25/hour, that if you want to make more you have to work harder.
Heck our younger son's gf (in high school) is making $18/hr making sandwiches and they can't find enough kids to work so she gets more hours than she wants.
Idk what you actually can do in Seattle that only makes $16/hr but it must be a real dog balls job!
2016 Ram 2500, MotorOps.ca EFIlive tuned, 5” turbo back, 6" lift on 37s
2017 Heartland Torque T29 - Sold.
Couple of Arctic Fox TCs - Sold
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Grit dog
Black Diamond, WA
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mkirsch wrote:
When they make journeyman, sure. Correct me if I'm wrong but in most trades, getting to journeyman is a SEVEN YEAR MINIMUM commitment. During that time you work for minimum wage, or even for free, as an apprentice, sweeping floors and doing very little related to the trade, all while being treated like dirt.
Then you'll turn around and grouse about how young people need to be coddled and hand-held, right? It's not either-or. There is a middle ground between abusive and coddling. Don't give me "That's how I came up through," because times have changed. Obviously the old way doesn't work anymore because you're short on skilled workers.
You're wrong. 3-4 years is the max for most all apprenticeships and that's only if a person possesses very little skill and less motivation passing up the ability to journey out quicker. Alot of its based on hours. Work more hours, journey out quicker.
Also, you're talking Union apprenticeships, of which you obviously aren't well read.
However the non union trades, while not as guaranteed for pay have other benefits, like no set time limit for apprenticeships. Far more merit based.
I journeyed out about 2 months after I graduated high school. That was the skill part. And I've pushed through many young men early to journeyman scale for the same reasons.
On the other hand, some also journey out faster based on hours worked. Be the first guy at work, last one to leave, volunteer and beg for OT as it available, and the same can happen just on work ethic and not above average skill.
And we're short on skilled workers, just like you and everywhere else in this country thanks to the abundant gubmint cheeze available.
Reference my post above.
BTW, the 2 kids I talked about, his buddy is going to school for Cicil Engineering and wants to get into construction.
My kid couldn't be farther from his buddy's aspirations (marine biologist) but what they do have in common aside from being friends is they know that work = money and no work = no money.
No abuse or coddling needed. Just a smidge of common sense and a good work ethic.
It's hard to understand, unless the "don't want to work" thing is true, how in an industry like construction, one of the few industries left where one expand into supervisory and even management positions without a formal education, why there isn't a line out the door of applicants.
And it's not a secret, the trade schools and diversity career fairs do publicize this. But ya gotta show up...
* This post was
edited 11/16/22 10:13am by Grit dog *
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Grit dog
Black Diamond, WA
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mkirsch wrote:Grit dog wrote:They NEVER bought brand new cars.
Yeah, "be fiscally responsible, buy used cars."
They don't manufacture USED cars. They only manufacture NEW cars.
Put another way, someone has to buy the NEW cars in order for there to be any USED cars out there to be "fiscally responsible" with.
Unless you buy some clapped-out chitbox, the cost of used these days doesn't pencil out. You pay almost-new price for a 3 year old used truck with 45,000 miles on it, except with no discount off "list," less on trade-in, no dealer incentives (which Town Chrysler Dodge Jeep in Buffalo are offering on their RAM pickups, BTW), and worse financing terms. Heck my bank won't loan money on a vehicle >5 years old!
Don't try to justify this based on Covid supply chain and pricing. I know you're old enough to remember the decades before this current mess we're still digging out of.
2 years ago, almost to the date, $37k for the truck in my signature line. Yes it was a good deal, but the normal prices were nowhere near the last 18-24months and that will not sustain, already heading back to normal (the original message of this thread...).
And you need a new bank...
The 1986 GMC we bought a couple years ago, title had a lien release from, I think 2013 on it. Not that I would advocate taking a loan for a clapped out chit box. Reference my comments about working in another thread.
Yes, someone does HAVE to buy new cars for used ones to be available. I even do it occasionally. 2001 and 2018, bought new off the lot.
And that's why it doesn't bother me to see other folks buy new when they probably shouldn't. Keeps me from having to when I can, easily.
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Grit dog
Black Diamond, WA
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4x4ord wrote: I've already had to do on oil change on my current rig, .
O
M
G
What is this world coming to? I guess Covid has affected us all, in one way or another! LOL
Cheers!
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Grit dog
Black Diamond, WA
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MFL wrote: I agree, buying used 1-3 years old, not best option for most.
Jerry
Not last year or this year it isn't.
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Travlingman
Jonesborough, TN
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4x4ord wrote:Grit dog wrote:shelbyfv wrote:^^^ Yep. Folks should be pondering why that is, instead of all the distractions they get lathered up about.
And by the same token, I have no issue with people being stupid with their money. Buy new and buy often is my motto to them!
I'm trying to take your advise but buying often is proving to be kind of difficult. They rolled my latest '22 order into a '23 and it will likely be a year before I see it. I've already had to do on oil change on my current rig, . Just for kicks I'll be calling the Ram store today to find out what the wait time is on new dually.
If you consider a Ford, you better do it today. The 2023 Superduty order board is closing today. From what I understand, for a dealer to order there has to be someone's name on the order, so no dealer stock orders. Can't order a GM heavy duty right now, March before order boards open. Interesting to hear what Ram says. One Youtuber showed ordering a Ram dually and said he was looking at up to a year before arrival.
So much for the lots filling back up.
2017 F-350 King Ranch DRW
2014 Landmark Savannah(sold)
2022 DRV Mobile Suite 40KSSB4
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